Gee thanks Raven Careers

[SteveC]

Pilot call for a virtual airline said this is new, and to give them until end of Q2 to load data into the website/database.

There are a couple of deadlines regulatorily - June of this year for historical records going back to (I forget the cut-off date), and the final deadline is September 2024 for the older historical records going back to (again, I forget the total time period covered by PRD recording).

It is likely that complete records won't be available until 09/24, especially coming out of smaller operators that don't have the manpower to manually input all the training and checking records required. It's a huge undertaking.

https://www.faa.gov/news/media/attachments/Pilot_Records_Database_Final_Rule.pdf

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

You do realize that Raven Career Development doesn't actually hire these people, they help them get hired by Legacy airlines, right? And then the airline interviews these people, and then they decide to hire the person or not? And then these people have to make it through the same training as you, and are held to the same standards, right? Cause it seems like you don't really understand the process.

I know several ass*oles at the major airlines. Almost all of them took interview prep courses. They undoubtedly helped them help get hired.

This is no different. They prep you to pass.

Maybe an unprepped guy would say in an interview that he failed because they were out to get him, that it was really one examiner who hated him, and no one wanted him to pass, etc.

You know, point the finger everywhere but inside at self.

These prep courses help pilots present the proper format and lots of “don’t do” stuff so they can pass the interview.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I know several ass*oles at the major airlines. Almost all of them took interview prep courses. They undoubtedly helped them help get hired.

This is no different. They prep you to pass.

Maybe an unprepped guy would say in an interview that he failed because they were out to get him, that it was really one examiner who hated him, and no one wanted him to pass, etc.

You know, point the finger everywhere but inside at self.

These prep courses help pilots present the proper format and lots of “don’t do” stuff so they can pass the interview.

So you're condemning them for providing a service just because a small percentage of their clientele might be bad pilots? That's BS.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

So you're condemning them for providing a service just because a small percentage of their clientele might be bad pilots? That's BS.

Personality wise? Meh. I can live (work) with that. Have it at, let 'em get prepped.


Getting multiple failures (4 Part 121!) onto airlines and helping create the next Colgan or Atlas crash? Yeah, I got a problem with that.


I'd sit down with this client and state to him, "Respectfully, it's time you consider a new line of work..."

For pilots, this doesn't get said enough. Or at all...

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Getting multiple failures (4 Part 121!) onto airlines and helping create the next Colgan or Atlas crash? Yeah, I got a problem with that.

I'd sit down with this client and state to him, "Respectfully, it's time you consider a new line of work..."

For pilots, this doesn't get said enough. Or at all...

100%! We, as a profession, have GOT to get past this notion that anybody can do this job! For some people it’s simply a bridge too far. At the 121 level we should all expect performance that far exceeds merely passing a checkride. Sure, everybody has a bad day once in a while. But multiple failures should give us pause. Accidents like Colgan and Atlas occurred because nobody threw the flag at ANY point during their careers and said, “Time out. You’re a very nice person, and you try hard. Unfortunately you lack the ability to perform at the minimum required level.”

 

[mwflyer]

Accidents like Colgan and Atlas occurred because nobody threw the flag at ANY point during their careers and said, “Time out. You’re a very nice person, and you try hard. Unfortunately you lack the ability to perform at the minimum required level.”

we say that, but both of these guys from my understanding weren’t honest on their apps as to all of their issues.

Employers only request PRIA from where I tell them I’ve been employed. PRD is supposed to eliminate that loophole.

 

[SteveC]

Personality wise? Meh. I can live (work) with that. Have it at, let 'em get prepped.


Getting multiple failures (4 Part 121!) onto airlines and helping create the next Colgan or Atlas crash? Yeah, I got a problem with that.


I'd sit down with this client and state to him, "Respectfully, it's time you consider a new line of work..."

For pilots, this doesn't get said enough. Or at all...

Are you saying it was Raven's job to do that? Crazy talk.

Blame the airline that hired him. (If in fact there weren't extenuating circumstances that would mitigate those checkride busts - something that you are making an assumption about, which you can't prove, even if it is likely.)

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Are you saying it was Raven's job to do that? Crazy talk.

Blame the airline that hired him. (If in fact there weren't extenuating circumstances that would mitigate those checkride busts - something that you are making an assumption about, which you can't prove, even if it is likely.)

The airline would have questioned them about previous Part 121 failures.


The Prep companies would have prepared them how *best* to answer that question that comes off accepting responsibility, humbled, hard worker, go getter.

I get it, maybe it was a divorce, death in family, severe ill situation with family at home, etc.

That said, you're still talking FOUR 121 failures. Ouch. 121 training (especially AQP) is about as easy as it gets. AQP is flying for dummies.


In my VX interview, 5 were hired out of 11. We had a group interview (first half) and panel private interviews (second half). Seeing the 1. behaviors and 2. answers of the 6 people in the group interview, I knew they wouldn't be hired. And they weren't. Our results were no surprise. These people absolutely effed up on their answers. or their presentation. or their demeanor. They could have been hired had they taken a proper interview prep course.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

If I was running a career prep, I would lose the business and take the loss, knowing I'm doing it for the greater good when I tell a 4+ 121 failure to go find another line of work.


I don't know any other career field where one feels so OWED to their own job, despite MULTIPLE, REPEATED failures in said job. It's almost like we are scared to look at a pilot in the eye and tell him he can't fly worth s**t - when sometimes that needs to be said.

 

[SteveC]

The airline would have questioned them about previous Part 121 failures.


The Prep companies would have prepared them how *best* to answer that question that comes off accepting responsibility, humbled, hard worker, go getter.

I get it, maybe it was a divorce, death in family, severe ill situation with family at home, etc.

That said, you're still talking FOUR 121 failures. Ouch. 121 training (especially AQP) is about as easy as it gets. AQP is flying for dummies.


In my VX interview, 5 were hired out of 11. We had a group interview (first half) and panel private interviews (second half). Seeing the 1. behaviors and 2. answers of the 6 people in the group interview, I knew they wouldn't be hired. And they weren't. Our results were no surprise. These people absolutely effed up on their answers. or their presentation. or their demeanor. They could have been hired had they taken a proper interview prep course.

I'll ask the question again, only I'll type slower this time.

"Are you saying it was Raven's job to do that (I.E. remove him from the pilot pool)?"

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I'll ask the question again, only I'll type slower this time.

"Are you saying it was Raven's job to do that (I.E. remove him from the pilot pool)?"

No. But take one for the team, take a loss of one business customer, and inform him that we cannot help you with this type of training record.

Instead, not only did they help this individual, they then used it to BRAG about it in terms of getting a guy hired with 4 Part 121 failures onto a major airline. They used that as an advert. Unbelievable!

It's shameful.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

No. But take one for the team, take a loss of one business customer, and inform him that we cannot help you with this type of training record.

Instead, not only did they help this individual, they then used it to BRAG about it in terms of getting a guy hired with 4 Part 121 failures onto a major airline. They used that as an advert. Unbelievable!

It's shameful.

I don't think that they were bragging. They were advertising to a niche segment about their services. Imagine that a business advertising its product.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I don't think that they were bragging. They were advertising to a niche segment about their services. Imagine that a business advertising its product.

And my point is this niche needs to be admonished. Not hand held to pass the next interview.

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

Are you saying it was Raven's job to do that? Crazy talk.

Blame the airline that hired him. (If in fact there weren't extenuating circumstances that would mitigate those checkride busts - something that you are making an assumption about, which you can't prove, even if it is likely.)

Yes, this.


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[mwflyer]

I don't know any other career field where one feels so OWED to their own job, despite MULTIPLE, REPEATED failures in said job. It's almost like we are scared to look at a pilot in the eye and tell him he can't fly worth s**t - when sometimes that needs to be said.

are you kidding? Do you know how many times some lawyers fail the bar exam? Once you pass on the 12th try, the other 11 are forgotten. At least with flying it sticks with you forever.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

are you kidding? Do you know how many times some lawyers fail the bar exam? Once you pass on the 12th try, the other 11 are forgotten. At least with flying it sticks with you forever.

Or what do you call a medical student who barely passed his/her exams... doctor!

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Personality wise? Meh. I can live (work) with that. Have it at, let 'em get prepped.


Getting multiple failures (4 Part 121!) onto airlines and helping create the next Colgan or Atlas crash? Yeah, I got a problem with that.


I'd sit down with this client and state to him, "Respectfully, it's time you consider a new line of work..."

For pilots, this doesn't get said enough. Or at all...

1. You have no idea what Raven told him.

2. It isn’t their job to police this.

3. I don’t necessarily agree that anyone who has failed checkrides should be done forever. We don’t know the circumstances.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

1. You have no idea what Raven told him.

2. It isn’t their job to police this.

3. I don’t necessarily agree that anyone who has failed checkrides should be done forever. We don’t know the circumstances.

1. If they are advertising they got a 4-time 121 failure hired at a major airline, the implication is we prepped him and got him hired.

2. I know. It’s an industry wide problem. If only we had a force that could sit down with a pilot and tell them to pack it up and find a new line of work.

3. One, two, or 3, okay. GA? Ok. But 4 separate Part 121 failures? I don’t know if you’ve done 121 flying, I’ll tell you this: 121 AQP is Flying for Dummies. Fail 4 times? You risk being that next Colgan or Atlas. If someone had taken the keys away (metaphorically) from these pilots, the crashes wouldn’t have happened.

 

[ricecake]

1. If they are advertising they got a 4-time 121 failure hired at a major airline, the implication is we prepped him and got him hired.

2. I know. It’s an industry wide problem. If only we had a force that could sit down with a pilot and tell them to pack it up and find a new line of work.

3. One, two, or 3, okay. GA? Ok. But 4 separate Part 121 failures? I don’t know if you’ve done 121 flying, I’ll tell you this: 121 AQP is Flying for Dummies. Fail 4 times? You risk being that next Colgan or Atlas. If someone had taken the keys away (metaphorically) from these pilots, the crashes wouldn’t have happened.

You do realize that there are multiple systems in place to prevent these examples of worst outcomes. If you continue to feel so strongly then perhaps a more effective alternative should be considered over complaining on the internet.

Have you thought about offering your time to the hiring committee? You could even apply get into the training department, teach the new guys how it's done while keeping ne'er-do-wells off the line.

Become the force for change... Or just fly the line and run the cockpit per SOP

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[Maximilian_Jenius]

1. If they are advertising they got a 4-time 121 failure hired at a major airline, the implication is we prepped him and got him hired.

2. I know. It’s an industry wide problem. If only we had a force that could sit down with a pilot and tell them to pack it up and find a new line of work.

3. One, two, or 3, okay. GA? Ok. But 4 separate Part 121 failures? I don’t know if you’ve done 121 flying, I’ll tell you this: 121 AQP is Flying for Dummies. Fail 4 times? You risk being that next Colgan or Atlas. If someone had taken the keys away (metaphorically) from these pilots, the crashes wouldn’t have happened.

Seriously. Why do you care so much? Honest question. Why is this another one of the many hills that you're willing to die on?