Future of SWA

[davetheflyer]

[ QUOTE ]


Are you sure you meant that? Has ACA really helped to bring that standard up recently??? CHQ is taking a stand, we'll see what comes out of it, but at least they arent giving up easily.



[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I mean it. We voted for a TA, but only after it was made abundantly clear to us that we had no prayer of receiving a UAL contract without it. Keep in mind that this was after Skywest and Air Whisky had taken pay cuts and Mesa, Chatauqua, Trans States and Sky Way had put in bids against us. Furthermore, in our defense, the TA that we ratified doesn't go into effect unless and until we receive a UAL contract. The majority of the pilots viewed it as a necessary evil to protect our jobs (and it looks like it wasn't enough to protect the UAL business).

===
John, I found these pay rates for Mesa on another site. Mesa starting pay is $3 less than ACA. If I were to start working at Mesa today, it would take me four years to get back to my current, miserly pay rate on an equivalent airplane. (I have had just over 1 year of service at ACA.)

I don't doubt that you made good money at Mesa, but I'd say that you are one of the few. In fact, I havn't found anyone who has worked for the company that likes the company or has any pride in working for them (other than yourself, of course). It doesn't make you wrong, just in the minority.




1. 0 - 19 Seat Turboprop Aircraft

DOS + 18 mo DOS + 36 mo DOS + 54 mo
YEAR CAPT FO CAPT FO CAPT FO CAPT FO
1 $28.72 $18.15 $29.29 $18.51 $29.88 $18.88 $30.48 $19.26
2 $30.07 $20.39 $30.67 $20.80 $31.28 $21.22 $31.91 $21.64
3 $31.64 $21.98 $32.27 $22.42 $32.92 $22.87 $33.58 $23.33
4 $33.29 $23.63 $33.96 $24.10 $34.64 $24.58 $35.33 $25.07
5 $34.83 $24.33 $35.53 $24.81 $36.24 $25.30 $36.96 $25.80
6 $36.27 $36.99 $37.73 $38.49
7 $37.35 $38.10 $38.86 $39.64
8 $38.46 $39.23 $40.01 $40.81


2. 20 - 74 Seat Turboprop Aircraft

DOS + 18 mo DOS + 36 mo DOS + 54 mo
YEAR CAPT FO CAPT FO CAPT FO CAPT FO
1 $37.64 $18.15 $38.39 $18.51 $39.16 $18.88 $39.94 $19.26
2 $39.10 $20.39 $39.88 $20.80 $40.68 $21.22 $41.49 $21.64
3 $40.52 $21.98 $41.33 $22.42 $42.16 $22.87 $43.00 $23.33
4 $42.19 $23.63 $43.03 $24.10 $43.89 $24.58 $44.77 $25.07
5 $43.70 $24.33 $44.57 $24.81 $45.46 $25.30 $46.37 $25.80
6 $45.23 $46.13 $47.05 $47.99
7 $46.48 $47.41 $48.36 $49.33
8 $47.78 $48.74 $49.71 $50.70
9 $49.07 $50.05 $51.05 $52.07
10 $50.34 $51.35 $52.38 $53.43
11 $51.72 $52.75 $53.81 $54.89
12 $52.84 $53.90 $54.98 $56.08
13 $53.66 $54.73 $55.82 $56.94
14 $54.49 $55.58 $56.69 $57.83

3. 50 to 59 Seat Jet Aircraft

DOS + 18 mo DOS + 36 mo DOS + 54 mo
YEAR CAPT FO CAPT FO CAPT FO CAPT FO
1 $51.17 $20.47 $52.19 $20.88 $53.24 $21.30 $54.30 $21.72
2 $52.76 $27.42 $53.82 $27.97 $54.89 $28.53 $55.99 $29.10
3 $54.35 $30.59 $55.44 $31.20 $56.55 $31.83 $57.68 $32.46
4 $55.99 $31.90 $57.11 $32.54 $58.25 $33.19 $59.42 $33.85
5 $57.64 $32.85 $58.79 $33.51 $59.97 $34.18 $61.17 $34.86
6 $59.32 $33.62 $60.51 $34.29 $61.72 $34.98 $62.95 $35.68
7 $60.94 $34.07 $62.16 $34.75 $63.40 $35.45 $64.67 $36.16
8 $62.90 $34.55 $64.16 $35.24 $65.44 $35.95 $66.75 $36.66
9 $64.83 $35.04 $66.13 $35.74 $67.45 $36.45 $68.80 $37.18
10 $66.82 $68.16 $69.52 $70.91
11 $68.75 $70.13 $71.53 $72.96
12 $70.85 $72.27 $73.71 $75.19
13 $72.95 $74.41 $75.90 $77.42
14 $75.21 $76.71 $78.25 $79.81
15 $76.26 $77.79 $79.34 $80.93

4. 60 – 76 Seat Jet Aircraft

Effective DOS:
DOS + 18 mo DOS + 36 mo DOS +
54 mo
YEAR CAPT FO CAPT FO CAPT FO CAPT FO
1 $53.86 $20.47 $54.94 $20.88 $56.04 $21.30 $57.16 $21.72
2 $55.50 $27.42 $56.61 $27.97 $57.74 $28.53 $58.89 $29.10
3 $57.17 $30.59 $58.31 $31.20 $59.48 $31.83 $60.67 $32.46
4 $58.91 $31.90 $60.09 $32.54 $61.29 $33.19 $62.52 $33.85
5 $60.68 $32.85 $61.89 $33.51 $63.13 $34.18 $64.39 $34.86
6 $62.50 $33.62 $63.75 $34.29 $65.03 $34.98 $66.33 $35.68
7 $64.37 $34.07 $65.65 $34.75 $66.97 $35.45 $68.30 $36.16
8 $66.30 $34.55 $67.62 $35.24 $68.97 $35.95 $70.35 $36.66
9 $68.29 $35.04 $69.65 $35.74 $71.04 $36.45 $72.46 $37.18
10 $70.34 $71.74 $73.18 $74.64
11 $72.45 $73.89 $75.37 $76.88
12 $74.63 $76.12 $77.64 $79.19
13 $76.86 $78.39 $79.96 $81.56
14 $79.17 $80.75 $82.36 $84.01
15 $81.55 $83.18 $84.84 $86.54
16 $82.85 $84.50 $86.19 $87.92
17 $84.18 $85.86 $87.58 $89.33
18 $85.52 $87.23 $88.97 $90.75
19 $86.89 $88.62 $90.40 $92.20
20 $88.36 $90.12 $91.92 $93.76


5. > 76 Seats < = 86k lbs Jet Aircraft

Effective DOS:
DOS + 18 mo DOS + 36 mo DOS +
54 mo
YEAR CAPT FO CAPT FO CAPT FO CAPT FO
1 $57.90 $20.47 $59.06 $20.88 $60.24 $21.30 $61.44 $21.72
2 $59.67 $27.42 $60.86 $27.97 $62.08 $28.53 $63.32 $29.10
3 $61.48 $30.59 $62.71 $31.20 $63.96 $31.83 $65.24 $32.46
4 $63.33 $31.90 $64.60 $32.54 $65.89 $33.19 $67.21 $33.85
5 $65.25 $32.85 $66.56 $33.51 $67.89 $34.18 $69.25 $34.86
6 $67.19 $33.62 $68.53 $34.29 $69.90 $34.98 $71.30 $35.68
7 $68.85 $34.07 $70.23 $34.75 $71.63 $35.45 $73.06 $36.16
8 $70.95 $34.55 $72.37 $35.24 $73.82 $35.95 $75.30 $36.66
9 $73.13 $35.04 $74.59 $35.74 $76.08 $36.45 $77.60 $37.18
10 $75.33 $76.84 $78.38 $79.95
11 $77.58 $79.13 $80.71 $82.32
12 $79.93 $81.53 $83.16 $84.82
13 $82.33 $83.98 $85.66 $87.37
14 $84.82 $86.52 $88.25 $90.02
15 $86.94 $88.68 $90.45 $92.26
16 $89.11 $90.89 $92.71 $94.56
17 $91.34 $93.17 $95.03 $96.93
18 $93.62 $95.49 $97.40 $99.35
19 $95.96 $97.88 $99.84 $101.84
20 $98.36 $100.33 $102.34 $104.39


__________________

 

[Mr_Creepy]

I think those are old rates.

My 5 yr RJ capt rate was 61.65

 

[davetheflyer]

At first glance they seem to be the same as the rates in a contract dated 1-16-2003 on

http://www.airlinepilotcontracts.com/Contracts/Contract%20Proposal.pdf

At least the starting FO pay is the same. At $18.15 with a 70 hour guarantee, a first year FO at Mesa can expect to make $15,246 before taxes. Of course, I realize that figure might increase slightly with the amount of reserve flying that they do, but still, you could make more money slinging fries at McDonalds.

 

[Kingairer]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I mean it. We voted for a TA, but only after it was made abundantly clear to us that we had no prayer of receiving a UAL contract without it. Keep in mind that this was after Skywest and Air Whisky had taken pay cuts and Mesa, Chatauqua, Trans States and Sky Way had put in bids against us. Furthermore, in our defense, the TA that we ratified doesn't go into effect unless and until we receive a UAL contract. The majority of the pilots viewed it as a necessary evil to protect our jobs (and it looks like it wasn't enough to protect the UAL business).


[/ QUOTE ]


Im not going to go to deep in to this. But your original comment was that Chautauqua and Mesa have lowered the bar for everyone. My only question is what has Altanic Caots Airnies done to raise it? ACA has given CHQ management another example of, LOOK everyone else is asking for concessions.

Ok im done

 

[Mr_Creepy]

You have been misled!

What everyone seems to forget is that Mesa doesn't use months, but they use 28 day bid periods. That means you get paid every two weeks rather than 2x a month. So 26 checks instead of 24.

18.15 x 70 x 13 bids = $16, 516.50 as a bare minimum.

Pr diem is up to 1.25/hr (I think) and the new contract has an anuual adjustment for that.

Most of my Mesa contacts, both there and gone, are very positive about the company right now.

Of course there are always the complainers, but they are everywhere

Most of the negative comments about Mesa come from other airline pilots, who have watched their lucrative contracts cost them some routes, while Mesa picks it up (Allegheny, Piedmont and maybe now ACA.)

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

NWA Flyer:

[ QUOTE ]
But pilots are pilots because they love to fly, now I would most certainly fly for Great Lakes Airlines for the rest of my life making under $20.00 and hour, flying a B1900 in most pretty nasty terrain

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah that would be cool; but when you have a mortgage, car loan, family/kids, it all adds up. And you'll find that you want to move up to bigger equipment for the better pay.

I guess that attitude would change as one grows older/wiser. It think if you want to be an airline pilot, then you should probably be more interested in how to get there (instead of who makes what/who is still hiring... because time will change all of that), i.e., by starting with the Private Pilot Certificate !!!!!

 

[davetheflyer]

[ QUOTE ]
My only question is what has Altanic Caots Airnies done to raise it? ACA has given CHQ management another example of, LOOK everyone else is asking for concessions.


[/ QUOTE ]

Even with our concession, if and when they go into effect, we're still better paid than the other guys. For us, it was a question of being between a rock and a hard place. There were 30% of voting pilots who thought convictions were more important than consequences. 70% thought that convictions wee meaningless if don't have a job.

 

[davetheflyer]

[ QUOTE ]
18.15 x 70 x 13 bids = $16, 516.50 as a bare minimum.

Pr diem is up to 1.25/hr (I think) and the new contract has an anuual adjustment for that.



[/ QUOTE ]

OK, $16,517 is bit better, but it's still a far cry from the roughly $21,000 guarantee that I received my first year. Our per diem is also much better at $1.65/$1.50 (pre/post TA).

The 13 bid cycles make the 8 days off slightly more palatable also:

8x13=104 annually

versus our

11x12= 132 annually

My fault for not looking over the contract more carefully. I have heard about Mesa's bid system in the past. Even taking that into account, there is still a huge disparity.

[ QUOTE ]
Of course there are always the complainers, but they are everywhere

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right about that. We have our share as well (maybe even me on occasion

), particularly those who look upward to the Holy Grail of Regional Airline Contracts: Comair.

 

[Mr_Creepy]

Yeah I don't get that whole thing about Comair. That contract seemed like a smoke and mirrors thing to me.

Fortunately at Mesa I was able to get paid more than 70 hrs most bid periods (notice I said "get paid" and not "flew") so my first year was not great, but after year 2 I was always well over 35k. Especially as an RJ captain. The $2000+ every two weeks was very nice!

 

[aviator]

[ QUOTE ]
But pilots are pilots because they love to fly, now I would most certainly fly for Great Lakes Airlines for the rest of my life making under $20.00 and hour, flying a B1900 in most pretty nasty terrain

[/ QUOTE ]

It might seem cool but I worked for Great Lakes for two years and I never met a pilot there who wanted to stay one day more than they had too. Carefull what you wish for......

 

[chris6387]

Re: Cory

[ QUOTE ]
And I do not play X-box, or Nintendo, or that other one, Play Station.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't know what you're missing!

j/k

 

[NWA_Flyer]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah that would be cool; but when you have a mortgage, car loan, family/kids, it all adds up. And you'll find that you want to move up to bigger equipment for the better pay.

I guess that attitude would change as one grows older/wiser. It think if you want to be an airline pilot, then you should probably be more interested in how to get there (instead of who makes what/who is still hiring... because time will change all of that), i.e., by starting with the Private Pilot Certificate !!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Already started that, should be done before High School is out

And believe me, I do know how to get there, I'm not stupid, that's what I spend most of my time doing, talking to pilots, reading books, websites, etc, etc.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

NWA Flyer:

No one said you were stupid.


One thing that I've noticed is that quite a few people here, uh, 'attack' real life airline pilots. Like John for example, he's been there/done that. Most of us are just aspiring to get there. There's absolutely no reason to try and dis him by who makes more in different regional carriers.

This kinda reminds me of this airliners.net forum airline pilot that I met. He quit the forums because, long story short, he was too tired of arguing with mostly people under 21, who would say that the 737 does this and this in microsoft flight simulator 98, so I'm right, you're wrong!

But seriously, have any of you been to the airliners forums recently?

I'm all for asking questions, but when you take on an absurd viewpoint, like:
I think all planes pull up at 90 knots, there's no way a 737 travels 140 knots before pulling up... the tires would blow from friction.

Then, when you try to explain it that it really does pull up at 140, and would stall at 90, they still refuse to believe it, and go on to produce all sorts of crap.

This is just one example.

There are countless examples...

 

[NWA_Flyer]

So your trying to say I'm dissing airline pilots?

How can you even compare me to someone like that? This whole mess got started when I said I'd fly for nothing. And everybody was in shock. I really didn't expect that much from this forum.

And where have I said anything about FS being better than the real thing, and I know more than a pilot? I beleive I said I play FS, have learned a lot, and take a program very seriously.

So if your going to compare me to something that obviously has no clue what a real airline pilot is capable of, I strongly suggest reading my replies/topics a little more carefully.

I came to this website, because it was created by a person who obviously loves his job, and enjoys helping people who anspire to do the same. I didn't come here to argue with people that obviously have no respect for what I tend to make with my life, I suspect you think your better than me, because your... on your way there, and I have yet to experience it, well jee wiz what has this country come to. And for that, I am not going to waste my time here.

Goodbye

 

[stuckingfk]

Nobody said they are better than you NWA_Flyer. The members of jetcareers are just giving their advice based on experience. Take it as you want to take it, but don't get all worked up about it.

You did deserve to be jumped on for saying you would fly for free. I know it was just an expression, but it is those expressions that bring down the prestige of being a professional pilot.

I wish I would have had my ducks in a row when I was your age. Keep your enthusiasm, but step out of your shoes and into another's, then things tend to make more sense.

 

[mtsu_av8er]

Wow...I've watched this 'un brew like one 'o them storms out in east carolina on a hot summer day (read in my best North Carolinian drawl.....).

I think what NWA_Flyer was trying to do was express how motivated he is about deciding on a career in aviation. I, for one, would have to tell him that I think he's right on the money, and that I admire him for having the balls to go for what he wants, and for saying what he believes.

Now, before anyone trys to jump on me, let me say that I do not think that pilots are overpaid. I am not trying to lower the prestige of the airline pilot job. I've never flown for an airline, so I don't know what it's like. I don't know what it's like to have a crappy schedule, and have to fly in crappy weather for peanuts. I don't know any of these things.

I really don't know what it's like to have to deal with union negotiations and airline executives that don't care about the pilots. I have no idea what that's like.

I wouldn't have the first clue what it's like to be furloughed, or fired, or what it's like to be responsible for thousands of lives while flying a complex aircraft to Part 121 standards. I have yet to see it.

However, in defense of NWA_Flyer, I do know what it is like to love to fly airplanes. Maybe since I've only got about 400 hours, I haven't seen the "light...", and to tell you the truth, I hope to God in heaven that I never do. I feel this way, because there are several things that I do know.

I know what it's like to wake up every single day, and dread going to work. That's a horrible feeling. I know what it's like to say, "You know, I hate this crap, but I've gotta feed my family....". That's one of the worst feelings in the world.

Now, if there are any airline executives reading the board, let me tell you, I would never do this for free, and I demand top dollar for my skills, and my knowledge as a professional pilot. If you don't give me those, I'm going to quit, and go back to slaving in a job that I don't like, so that I can say that I'm not being taken advantage of. Now, will all airline executives please leave the room....I want to talk to my bretheren.

Now, that all of those guys and girls are gone, let me say this. I love flying. If no airline pilot ever made more than $40,000 a year, I would do it. I really would. I know all about the mortgage, and the bills, and the kids. I do. Been there already, done that, and I'm not 15 so don't even think about jumping down my throat. I think that pilots should be paid more, but I also think that the Mississippi river should flow from the east to the west. Anybody know how I can change that?? I didn't think so....

If it were up to me, pilots would be paid very well, and nobody would claim that we were overpaid. But anybody that truly loves their career would probably understand what NWA-Flyer is saying. He's saying that he loves aviation.

You guys that already fly the big iron (or the small aluminum for that matter) - keep it up. And don't sell yourself short. But at the same time, understand that some people would fly for peanuts. That's just the way it is. I know that it's true for me.....I didn't say that I would literally do it for free.....that wouldn't work. I'm pretty sick of the Ramen (while you joke, that's what I eat, twice a day...so that I can fly), but I can eat it longer. I promise you that I have eaten worse. But cut the guy some slack....personally, I hear what he means.

You know, yesterday, I was flying across Kentucky, and it wasn't the smoothest ride. But for just a minute, I popped out of a cloud, and I felt like I was in heaven. I was surrounded by clouds, and the sun was setting just over the edge to the west. That made it all worth it. To me, at least.....maybe we need to look out the window a little more often......

 

[stuckingfk]

Good Post! I like ramen too, so good.

I know where NWA_Flyer was coming from, that he would fly no matter what. Everyone hates to work at times even if they enjoy their job, they just don't want to work. I feel that flying will have me saying "I hate work" less than any other profession, so that is why I want to fly for a living.

 

[Mr_Creepy]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe since I've only got about 400 hours, I haven't seen the "light ..."

If no airline pilot ever made more than $40,000 a year, I would do it. I really would.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure everybody loves it at 400hrs. It's a completely different story at 4,000hrs.

I know you hate to hear this but 400 hrs is still really low time. You probably haven't had enough scares yet to realize an experienced pilot is worth much more than 40k.

If my life depends on someone being a good, experienced pilot, then I want the company to hire the guy that's the best available, not just the guy who really wants to be there.

mtsu I know you love aviation a lot. So do I. Trust me though, in a few thousand hours you will have a different perspective! And you will get there, it will just take a little time!

 

[mtsu_av8er]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
mtsu I know you love aviation a lot. So do I. Trust me though, in a few thousand hours you will have a different perspective!


[/ QUOTE ]

You may be right...I may absolutely hate aviation whenever I have 4,000 hours!!! But trust me on this one....I once would do anything for the Marine Corps, because I loved it. After 8 years, several deployments, and being tired of the BS games, I got out. Why? Because a very wise man told me that when you start looking at it as work, it's time to start looking for a new trade.

Another wise man (my father), once told me that if you find something that you love to do, you'll never work a day in your life. Take my word for it....the day that I start hating aviation, I'll move to my second love (computers). And when I get tired of doing that, I'll become a professional bass fisherman. And so on, and so forth....I refuse to look back on life with regrets. Maybe I have too much ambition....maybe I'm "young and naive". Call me what you will, but you'll never call me miserable with my job.

 

[Mr_Creepy]

I'm reading in to what you said there. 8 years in the MC and is was no fun anymore. Tired of the BS games.

Aviation has all that, too.

Now Bass Fishing... now that sounds like a career! Ah I'd probably get sick of getting up at 330 am to get out to the lake LOL.