Future Colgan Payrates

FlyChicaga said:
It might be a good idea to have a separate section in the "Airline Pilots" forum where we can upload the various airline contracts. That would immediately eliminate all this "I heard at carrier XYZ that you get a 4 hour minimum daily guarantee." You can actually look it up and compare.

Thoughts?
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Good idea. Working on Jetcareers "2.0" in another window.

Freaky timing there! :)
 
MattB said:
Piedmont's LTP rates suck and we don't even have the airplanes. I do know that the Colgan Negotiating Comm. was handed our LTP rates a few weeks ago in Herndon. Pleeeeeeeeease at least get those, even though they are 2 year old rates.
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I have heard quite the opposite. The rates are quite good from what I've been told.
 
Toonces said:
Sarcasm noted. I am not the enemy here. We have a big problem. The system as is clearly is not working to our benefit.

Let's think about the reasons you might need insurance.
1. Company fires you.
2. FAA action against you.

If we could take our experience with us to a new job I believe the airlines would be less inclined to fire people. The way the system is set up now, it is cheaper to fire someone now because they will be replaced by someone at a lower salary. Examples- day one FO or brand newly upgraded captain. Both are currently a bargain for management.

As for FAA action. If AOPA can offer legal services for the $40 they charge I am sure an enterprising aviation attorney could offer a reasonable rate on services more geared for the 121 world. I am certain it would be a far better deal than what we are paying now.
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I'll be honest I don't think most companies fire senior people *just because*. Here we have a lot of senior folks who never have issues, although I bet having a strong union on property helps it stay that way. Overall I feel for management because I think deep down they would like to build schedules for conductive to commuting, rest, fatigue, etc. but there are tremendous cost pressures in the airline environment.

My father worked for a Government contractor in a minority owned business. He was making good money. He was let go almost 10 years ago because he was making too much and they could hire people for half his wage and they'd be thrilled.

Kinda like the airlines. At UPS new hires make what, $25/hr (really $12.50/hr when you break it down). Yet the senior FO's are making $100/hr+. It's the knowledge that they could (and probably will) make it to the high pay scales that people keep applying. And it's the knowledge of those pay scales that keep regional pilots holding out for that golden carrot.
 
wheelsup said:
I'll be honest I don't think most companies fire senior people *just because*. Here we have a lot of senior folks who never have issues, although I bet having a strong union on property helps it stay that way. Overall I feel for management because I think deep down they would like to build schedules for conductive to commuting, rest, fatigue, etc. but there are tremendous cost pressures in the airline environment.
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Being on our scheduling committee, we get the raw data of all the flights, and as much as we bitch about long sits and all, there really isnt much the airline can do. They are handed the schedules from the mainline, and they have to do the best they can.
 
Toonces said:
When I was referring to walking away from a company I was not necessarily referring to any one company. We are all slaves to our seniority number in this industry. I have not heard any talk lately of ALPA and a national seniority list. If I had the ability to leave one company as a 4th year FO and start at another company at the bottom of the seniority list but on 4th year pay, then I think you would see wages at the lower paying regionals come up.

As for the pilot factories, they are all in some serious poo poo right now. My old flight school is really hurting right now. If it wasn't for the foreign students, they wouldn't have any. The domestic students can't get loans. Sally Mae and Key Bank no longer do career loans. You better have cash or bribe a local bank because the money isn't there. I also think the minimums need to be raised to at least 135 mins for 121 operators. It is asinine that I need 1200 hrs to fly checks in a banged up C 210 but I can jump in the right seat of an E190 at 200 hours. If this were implemented that would really slow down the whole job buying racket.
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You can fly right seat 135 with 200 hours... Same as you can fly right seat in 121 with 200 hours. In order to fly as PIC for 135 you need 1200, you actually need more for 121 to be PIC (1500).
 
Capt FO

Year Rate Year Rate
1 $ 59.60 1 $ 28.50
2 $ 63.85 2 $ 32.81
3 $ 66.33 3 $ 34.17
4 $ 67.94 4 $ 35.51
5 $ 69.30 5 $ 36.86
6 $ 71.07 6 $ 37.50
7 $ 72.82 7 $ 38.15
8 $ 74.34 8 $ 3848
9 $ 75.71 9 $ 38.79
10 $ 77.13 10 $ 40.07
11 $ 80.54
12 $ 83.09
13 $ 85.77
14 $ 87.11
15 $ 88.84
16 $ 89.32
17 $ 8997
18 $ 9146
19 $ 92.98
20 $ 94.13
21 $ 9446
22 $ 94.74
23 $ 95.07
24 $ 95.38
25 $ 96.02
 
Toonces said:
Yep. Sure.

I'm not complaining. I am creating awareness. If you are waiting for the unions to save your career I pity you. I am sure I could negotiate my own wages just fine. Instead I get the privilege of paying nearly 2% of my salary to pay someone else to do it for me. If we had the ability to take our experience to another airline and get paid accordingly, we would see an instantaneous (by comparison) change in the industry vs. having a middleman negotiate your wages. It works in every other industry.
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A few things.

You were complaining, you're really good at it.

The union saved nothing for me, I'm furloughed, from the same company you work for actually. Thanks for playing, though.

I doubt you could negotiate anything if your verbal skills are in line with your writing skills.

Every other industry is not as heavily regulated or safety oriented as the airline industry.
 
jtrain609 said:
A few things.

You were complaining, you're really good at it.

The union saved nothing for me, I'm furloughed, from the same company you work for actually. Thanks for playing, though.

I doubt you could negotiate anything if your verbal skills are in line with your writing skills.

Every other industry is not as heavily regulated or safety oriented as the airline industry.
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Are you incapable of having a debate/argument without making personal attacks?
 
I'll toss out a third option to the other two listed: Pinnacle finally gets a contract, and Colgan is allowed to just implement same said contract. It's been discussed before, but I don't personally know how the two sides feel about it. It would be one step closer to getting a unified seniority list, and odds are good that if the company agreed to a seat pay rate rather than an airframe rate, the Q guys would be making the same as our -900 guys.
 
MattB said:
How are the PNCL negotiations going? We've gotta be close to the end game now right?
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Pretty much only a couple of things left open, but the BIIIG one is scope. Company doesn't seem to want to budge at all on that. Personally, I don't care if you give me $100 hr, if the scope clause means you can farm flying to other people, that $100/hr doesn't do squat when I'm out of a job....
 
kellwolf said:
Pretty much only a couple of things left open, but the BIIIG one is scope. Company doesn't seem to want to budge at all on that. Personally, I don't care if you give me $100 hr, if the scope clause means you can farm flying to other people, that $100/hr doesn't do squat when I'm out of a job....
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Makin' me proud, son. :)

You can have the best rates in the industry but unless you've got scope language, you've just wasted your time for bragging rights on the pilot pay grid.
 
kellwolf said:
Pretty much only a couple of things left open, but the BIIIG one is scope. Company doesn't seem to want to budge at all on that. Personally, I don't care if you give me $100 hr, if the scope clause means you can farm flying to other people, that $100/hr doesn't do squat when I'm out of a job....
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How much longer can this BS go on for? At some point they have to deal with the NMB don't they?

(I'm still a newb so forgive if the question has an easy obvious answer)
 
jynxyjoe said:
How much longer can this BS go on for? At some point they have to deal with the NMB don't they?

(I'm still a newb so forgive if the question has an easy obvious answer)
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The average time for section 6 negotiations is 3 to 3.5 years.

The rules: http://www.nmb.gov/documents/rla.html

The game: http://www.nmb.gov/mediation/faq-mediation.html

Contract disputes: http://www.nmb.gov/arbitration/afaq.html

The game in a picture: http://www.nmb.gov/publicinfo/collbarg2.pdf
 
kellwolf said:
I'll toss out a third option to the other two listed: Pinnacle finally gets a contract, and Colgan is allowed to just implement same said contract. It's been discussed before, but I don't personally know how the two sides feel about it. It would be one step closer to getting a unified seniority list, and odds are good that if the company agreed to a seat pay rate rather than an airframe rate, the Q guys would be making the same as our -900 guys.
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Please! Let that happen.....I support it 100% and I try to educate those around me on the merits of such an action. I want all of what you get and a 'lil tweaking to bump the industry house. Voîla, contract for CJC!


Snuggle said:
I'm all for that. How do we go about combining seniority lists? Can that happen now?
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Well, when the "brain factory" moves to MEM this summer, it's going to be that much easier to demonstrate our 'single carrier status.' Also, I know unofficial talks are going on how to fairly integrate our seniority lists. Better to have the plan in place when the time comes....instead of the unprepared scramble.
 
the BIG push at ALPA now is a FEE FOR DEPARTURE united front. I know your Neg comm is all over it. Support them and the other FFD airlines will follow...
 
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