Future Colgan Payrates

surreal1221 said:
Burn the village to save it huh?
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Yep. Management can drag out negotiations indefinitely as we have seen over and over again. If we all had the ability to quit and get paid for our experience at another company, management would be forced to do something to attract labor.

You can starve the beast or let the beast starve you. The system now is set up heavily in favor of the airlines due to our seniority system that the unions created. Airline management knows you probably won't leave 4th year pay at crappy airline X to start off at 1st year pay at slightly better airline Y. We screwed ourselves with seniority.
 
No cuz a hundred other people would apply, the more people quit the more people would apply (quick upgrade!!) We're our own worst enemy.
 
SpiraMirabilis said:
No cuz a hundred other people would apply, the more people quit the more people would apply (quick upgrade!!) We're our own worst enemy.
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You assume an indefinite supply of new pilots and that some people may leave the industry all together. However we are our own worst enemy.
 
Well in all fairness, as a realist I'd point out, a lot of those guys applying aren't gonna have ATP mins... or an ATP... or the test done...

But this is all fantasy land.
 
Toonces said:
You assume an indefinite supply of new pilots and that some people may leave the industry all together. However we are our own worst enemy.
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If sudden large numbers walk off, the company could claim that as illegal work stoppage/actions. We would lose any ground we had to stand on when the govt forced us to return to work.

They wouldn't even need to find 200 hr wonders to replace us.
 
Yeah, if all you guys and gals walked away then the fast track programs would reincarnate all over the country and crank out your replacements at lightning speed.
 
TUCKnTRUCK said:
If sudden large numbers walk off, the company could claim that as illegal work stoppage/actions. We would lose any ground we had to stand on when the govt forced us to return to work.

They wouldn't even need to find 200 hr wonders to replace us.
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todd405 said:
Yeah, if all you guys and gals walked away then the fast track programs would reincarnate all over the country and crank out your replacements at lightning speed.
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When I was referring to walking away from a company I was not necessarily referring to any one company. We are all slaves to our seniority number in this industry. I have not heard any talk lately of ALPA and a national seniority list. If I had the ability to leave one company as a 4th year FO and start at another company at the bottom of the seniority list but on 4th year pay, then I think you would see wages at the lower paying regionals come up.

As for the pilot factories, they are all in some serious poo poo right now. My old flight school is really hurting right now. If it wasn't for the foreign students, they wouldn't have any. The domestic students can't get loans. Sally Mae and Key Bank no longer do career loans. You better have cash or bribe a local bank because the money isn't there. I also think the minimums need to be raised to at least 135 mins for 121 operators. It is asinine that I need 1200 hrs to fly checks in a banged up C 210 but I can jump in the right seat of an E190 at 200 hours. If this were implemented that would really slow down the whole job buying racket.
 
Toonces said:
When I was referring to walking away from a company I was not necessarily referring to any one company. We are all slaves to our seniority number in this industry. I have not heard any talk lately of ALPA and a national seniority list. If I had the ability to leave one company as a 4th year FO and start at another company at the bottom of the seniority list but on 4th year pay, then I think you would see wages at the lower paying regionals come up.

As for the pilot factories, they are all in some serious poo poo right now. My old flight school is really hurting right now. If it wasn't for the foreign students, they wouldn't have any. The domestic students can't get loans. Sally Mae and Key Bank no longer do career loans. You better have cash or bribe a local bank because the money isn't there. I also think the minimums need to be raised to at least 135 mins for 121 operators. It is asinine that I need 1200 hrs to fly checks in a banged up C 210 but I can jump in the right seat of an E190 at 200 hours. If this were implemented that would really slow down the whole job buying racket.
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If theres one thing I've learned, it is trust fund babies and the uber wealthy never run out of money to give to their worthless kids. Take a look at the current cost of Riddle. Never ceases to amaze me.

<--- Riddle alum (back when it was cheaper than instate UMASS)
 
Toonces said:
When I was referring to walking away from a company I was not necessarily referring to any one company. We are all slaves to our seniority number in this industry. I have not heard any talk lately of ALPA and a national seniority list. If I had the ability to leave one company as a 4th year FO and start at another company at the bottom of the seniority list but on 4th year pay, then I think you would see wages at the lower paying regionals come up.

As for the pilot factories, they are all in some serious poo poo right now. My old flight school is really hurting right now. If it wasn't for the foreign students, they wouldn't have any. The domestic students can't get loans. Sally Mae and Key Bank no longer do career loans. You better have cash or bribe a local bank because the money isn't there. I also think the minimums need to be raised to at least 135 mins for 121 operators. It is asinine that I need 1200 hrs to fly checks in a banged up C 210 but I can jump in the right seat of an E190 at 200 hours. If this were implemented that would really slow down the whole job buying racket.
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If we had market based wages you could do just that. I started a thread about it, didn't get much attention save for some folks who thought I was a scab for evening mentioning it.

Market based wages would allow folks to switch companies with relative ease. Imagine walking into an employers office w/ XXXX TT and experience and getting the respect that having that experience means? Similar to corporate jobs.

Airlines could still have pay scales but they would be much flatter. Maybe only several tiers, say for example new hire FO, experienced FO, new CA, experienced CA, or something of that nature.

Is it right that an FO that has been here 2 years less than I have makes $6,000 a year less? NO! He does the same job I do.

Is it right that a CA that has been here for 20 years makes $35,000 more than a newly upgraded CA? NO!

While seniority based pay works well for things like vacation, upgrade, and bidding I think it actually hinders long term advancement. How many senior people were at Pan Am, Braniff, Eastern, TWA, Piedemont, (first airline I ever flew on, still have the gold plastic silverware somewhere) the list goes on.

Imagine a guy who completely hates Continental, and wants to jump to Delta. But he's been there 10 years. It would be tough to swallow that hit.
 
jynxyjoe said:
If theres one thing I've learned, it is trust fund babies and the uber wealthy never run out of money to give to their worthless kids. Take a look at the current cost of Riddle. Never ceases to amaze me.

<--- Riddle alum (back when it was cheaper than instate UMASS)
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Back when I was at Riddle I was paying something like $12k/year in tuition, I had some seniors in my class as a freshman who were paying $4k/yr.
 
wheelsup said:
If we had market based wages you could do just that. I started a thread about it, didn't get much attention save for some folks who thought I was a scab for evening mentioning it.

Market based wages would allow folks to switch companies with relative ease. Imagine walking into an employers office w/ XXXX TT and experience and getting the respect that having that experience means? Similar to corporate jobs.

Airlines could still have pay scales but they would be much flatter. Maybe only several tiers, say for example new hire FO, experienced FO, new CA, experienced CA, or something of that nature.

Is it right that an FO that has been here 2 years less than I have makes $6,000 a year less? NO! He does the same job I do.

Is it right that a CA that has been here for 20 years makes $35,000 more than a newly upgraded CA? NO!

While seniority based pay works well for things like vacation, upgrade, and bidding I think it actually hinders long term advancement. How many senior people were at Pan Am, Braniff, Eastern, TWA, Piedemont, (first airline I ever flew on, still have the gold plastic silverware somewhere) the list goes on.

Imagine a guy who completely hates Continental, and wants to jump to Delta. But he's been there 10 years. It would be tough to swallow that hit.
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I am totally with you. With the current arrangement we have with the unions as the middle men, everyone wins but pilots. The Unions don't want you to have the ability to negotiate your own wage because then what purpose would they serve? Management loves the seniority trap we all allow ourselves to be in. They know most people will continue to take the abuse they hand out. Where are you going to go? Are you going to start back at day 1 FO pay? Unions will continue to take their 1.9% crappy contract or not because they have everyone convinced we can't live without them. Unions are the reason we need unions. They created this stupid seniority mess. Anyone with any sense should realize that without portability the deck is stacked against us.

The ball is totally in pilots court for negotiations. It cost what 15 to 20k to replace us. Management wants to jerk around their pilots we follow the revolving door back out and let them bleed dry in training costs. This can only work with seniority portability or market based wages.
 
I would like to see better work rules...I am really unhappy with the fact we are no longer paid for a maint. cancellation, or recieve hesitation pay in the event of a maint. canx after a pairing has begun. During my last rotation, I lost nearly 6 hours of pay due to maintenance. I don't even want to tell you how many hours I was on duty!
Let's see if we can get 4 hour min. pay for any time you are on duty PLUS the scheduled block. Pipe dream, but a guy can dream can't he? I've been called three times to cover short-fused call-outs. I'm beginning to see that mgt. is on the edge here, and is loosing their leverage of dropping the "F" word on us. Reserve coverage is none-existent at the out-stations now, so we could be in for some big changes this fall...

Regards,

Ex-Navy Rotorhead
 
Toonces said:
I am totally with you. With the current arrangement we have with the unions as the middle men, everyone wins but pilots. The Unions don't want you to have the ability to negotiate your own wage because then what purpose would they serve? Management loves the seniority trap we all allow ourselves to be in. They know most people will continue to take the abuse they hand out. Where are you going to go? Are you going to start back at day 1 FO pay? Unions will continue to take their 1.9% crappy contract or not because they have everyone convinced we can't live without them. Unions are the reason we need unions. They created this stupid seniority mess. Anyone with any sense should realize that without portability the deck is stacked against us.

The ball is totally in pilots court for negotiations. It cost what 15 to 20k to replace us. Management wants to jerk around their pilots we follow the revolving door back out and let them bleed dry in training costs. This can only work with seniority portability or market based wages.
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MEC elections are coming up, you're going to run so that you can get on the inside, sack the contract and setup this Utopian system, right?

Because if you're not going to, I'm not really sure why you're complaining on the internets.
 
jtrain609 said:
MEC elections are coming up, you're going to run so that you can get on the inside, sack the contract and setup this Utopian system, right?

Because if you're not going to, I'm not really sure why you're complaining on the internets.
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Yep. Sure.

I'm not complaining. I am creating awareness. If you are waiting for the unions to save your career I pity you. I am sure I could negotiate my own wages just fine. Instead I get the privilege of paying nearly 2% of my salary to pay someone else to do it for me. If we had the ability to take our experience to another airline and get paid accordingly, we would see an instantaneous (by comparison) change in the industry vs. having a middleman negotiate your wages. It works in every other industry.
 
jynxyjoe said:
yeah... 2% sure is a lot to pay for the ALPA insurance and the lawyer you can call at any time.:sarcasm:
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Sarcasm noted. I am not the enemy here. We have a big problem. The system as is clearly is not working to our benefit.

Let's think about the reasons you might need insurance.
1. Company fires you.
2. FAA action against you.

If we could take our experience with us to a new job I believe the airlines would be less inclined to fire people. The way the system is set up now, it is cheaper to fire someone now because they will be replaced by someone at a lower salary. Examples- day one FO or brand newly upgraded captain. Both are currently a bargain for management.

As for FAA action. If AOPA can offer legal services for the $40 they charge I am sure an enterprising aviation attorney could offer a reasonable rate on services more geared for the 121 world. I am certain it would be a far better deal than what we are paying now.
 
Toonces said:
Sarcasm noted. I am not the enemy here. We have a big problem. The system as is clearly is not working to our benefit.

Let's think about the reasons you might need insurance.
1. Company fires you.
2. FAA action against you.

If we could take our experience with us to a new job I believe the airlines would be less inclined to fire people. The way the system is set up now, it is cheaper to fire someone now because they will be replaced by someone at a lower salary. Examples- day one FO or brand newly upgraded captain. Both are currently a bargain for management.

As for FAA action. If AOPA can offer legal services for the $40 they charge I am sure an enterprising aviation attorney could offer a reasonable rate on services more geared for the 121 world. I am certain it would be a far better deal than what we are paying now.
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I don't know man. My XJ union Local and MEC have been so good at this company I'd have a tough time rationalizing a switch.

What company were you at before? I know I've seen it I just don't remember it.
 
Piedmont's LTP rates suck and we don't even have the airplanes. I do know that the Colgan Negotiating Comm. was handed our LTP rates a few weeks ago in Herndon. Pleeeeeeeeease at least get those, even though they are 2 year old rates.
 
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