Frontier will get some bad press for this

derg said:
No, I'm going to read what was written up by the pilot, read the corrective action and any (M) item compliance and go on about my day.

If I can't ascertain any of that because it's missing, C/Bs aren't collared correctly or it's illegible, the plane isn't moving.

Period.

That's the answer.

Ask me again if you'd like but re-read the above because it's not changing
Click to expand...
So what you're saying is you need to ensure all of the MA column items have been addressed. You're a conscientious captain that drags out the MEL on every flight before and after each flight and verifies the clock, flight time and manual. I think you're being less than truthful.
 
knot4u said:
So what you're saying is you need to ensure all of the MA column items have been addressed. You're a conscientious captain that drags out the MEL on every flight before and after each flight and verifies the clock, flight time and manual. I think you're being less than truthful.
Click to expand...

Yes, I do.

Absolutely.

Our SPECTRE (or is it LIDS) system is made to save everyone from dispatching a non-legal airplane, but you do occasionally find two conflicting MELs.

But yes, I read the write-up, reference the MEL, Check for any flight crew tasks that we need to accomplish and do a read through the MX functions and look for compliance that's always been the working environment where I work and it's exactly what I teach my OE students in either seat.

Additionally, if a crew I was doing a line check on didn't read the logbook, read the text of the MEL or had low confidence that it had been complied with and decided to launch anyway, it wouldn't go well.

Reviewing our FOM in section 28 "Maintenance", the answer is super-yes. EACH (cockpit) crew member, not just the captain. I'm unable to post the FOM but failure to comply with FOM 28.6.3.2 would be considered a safety of flight issue. And, depending on the consequences of the oversight, it could lead to a trip back to the gate if no one caught it. I wouldn't take "I can't read the mechanics writing" as an excuse for not calling MCC to confirm what was written and why the compliance with the MEL wasn't in correct actions.

You do realize we work for different companies with different expectations and I'm a Line Check Pilot?

You work where you work with your own norms and expectations as well do I.

I'm probably the worst person to ask.

Ask me again, I'll give you a version of the same above answer.
 
As a FO, even I read the write up and the corresponding MEL. I thought that was kind of the expectation for pilots. We didn't have MELs in the military, but rather "open" discrepancies (i.e. deferrable items), which is kind of the same idea. Some of those write ups are more written in MX speak, but the important ones are typically written in a short hand that idiot pilot can still understand. I read these things because I have had many experiences over the years of the "cannot duplicate on deck" write up and sign off, and it is useful to know what was actually done. I don't have anywhere near that level of experience in my current 121 ride (I'm basically just gaining experience at the moment, and also not trying to sound like an idiot when the CA asks me about it), but for my mil one, yes, I can fairly accurately stink check an open gripe and figure out how deeply they have actually delved into the problem......in the sense that over the years, I have learned things like "step one for solving any problem", followed by "step two: the path of least resistance with this particular system/component", followed by "step three: we swapped the left box with the right box, but we still aren't convinced", ultimately followed by "did a whole bunch of MX and we replaced components/checked wires/most likely actually fixed it". I think there is probably an equivalent time vs effort matrix applied in any MX department, and I'm not hating on it, I just like to know where we are with things. I'm still flying it, but at least I know what to possibly expect, and perhaps will be armed with the ability to help out on my write up, should it re-occur.

Also @knot4u, legitimately interested, what makes maintaining other aircraft more interesting than airliners?
 
knot4u said:
So what you're saying is you need to ensure all of the MA column items have been addressed. You're a conscientious captain that drags out the MEL on every flight before and after each flight and verifies the clock, flight time and manual. I think you're being less than truthful.
Click to expand...

Umm... I'd say 90% of 121 crews I've flown with over the last 19 years have done this.
 
DE727UPS said:
I could never have been a check airman having to dot the T's and cross the I's all the time. Way too much work.
Click to expand...

It's pretty easy as don't do anything extra that I didn't already do, there's just more telephone time, paperwork and email chains of confusion when HQ doesn't communicate procedural changes sufficiently.

Same muscle-group that you use when you're a CFI: "About to die about to die oh nice, oh yeah, there ya go… 50…30….20… niiiiiiiice…."

But looking up the MELs, you'd better on the Airbus because there are sometimes unrelated systems affected by the MEL. I can't remember on the 330, but we lost something like an LGCIU and next thing I know we're pulling things out of the cargo bin, MEL'ing crew rest and offloading some unlucky non-revs… Maybe it was a different system, I don't have to remember.
 
To be fair, even on the fast and loose freight dog 135 side this was kinda expected…it takes all of 1 minute if nothing is MEL, scan a few days back to see if there have been any recent writeups/issues, and your on your way. Sure an MEL meant another 2ish mins digging to see the limitations, but honestly, I don't see this as too unreasonable. Sure does it get missed, absolutely, my self guilty, but that was by far the exception to the rule and not deliberate.

Cant read the writing, or signature missing, or the common “CND OPS check good”, when you know its been rushed back to service …all raises a flag for potential things to watch for or get corrected prior to flight.

Honestly be surprised it was much different any place that wasn’t a cowboy outfit.

no comment on the alarming regularity with which failures occur on the last leg of the day.
 
BobDDuck said:
Umm... I'd say 90% of 121 crews I've flown with over the last 19 years have done this.
Click to expand...

We call it "the Trifecta"

Logbook matches the ship number matches the flight plan and the GPS time is correct. Because if it's not, it's madness on the bus.
 
Do the real airlines do crew deferrals? I remember for years at Brown, if something broke after push, you just blocked back in and has the mechanic take care of it. Well, somebody decided there was a better way. UPS got the FAA to buy off on crew deferrals. Something breaks after push, you talk to the mechanic on the interphone and tell him to have a nice day. Then you call MMOC (UPS speak for central maintenance in SDF) and tell them what's broke. Now the tell you what to write in the logbook, verbatim, but you get to sign it, like a mechanic, and fill out DMI stickers and pull circuit breakers, if necessary. I'll never forget being on my knees and bending around behind the F/O seat looking for some circuit breaker in Bradly after being up all night. It would have been much faster had we just blocked back in and let the mechanic do it....but that wasn't our procedure. I do remember once in Maui when I said F it and just blocked back in and let MX deal with it. Never heard a word...
 
DE727UPS said:
Do the real airlines do crew deferrals? I remember for years at Brown, if something broke after push, you just blocked back in and has the mechanic take care of it. Well, somebody decided there was a better way. UPS got the FAA to buy off on crew deferrals. Something breaks after push, you talk to the mechanic on the interphone and tell him to have a nice day. Then you call MMOC (UPS speak for central maintenance in SDF) and tell them what's broke. Now the tell you what to write in the logbook, verbatim, but you get to sign it, like a mechanic, and fill out DMI stickers and pull circuit breakers, if necessary. I'll never forget being on my knees and bending around behind the F/O seat looking for some circuit breaker in Bradly after being up all night. It would have been much faster had we just blocked back in and let the mechanic do it....but that wasn't our procedure. I do remember once in Maui when I said F it and just blocked back in and let MX deal with it. Never heard a word...
Click to expand...
Certain items are flight crew placardable. Others aren't.
 
DE727UPS said:
Do the real airlines do crew deferrals? I remember for years at Brown, if something broke after push, you just blocked back in and has the mechanic take care of it. Well, somebody decided there was a better way. UPS got the FAA to buy off on crew deferrals. Something breaks after push, you talk to the mechanic on the interphone and tell him to have a nice day. Then you call MMOC (UPS speak for central maintenance in SDF) and tell them what's broke. Now the tell you what to write in the logbook, verbatim, but you get to sign it, like a mechanic, and fill out DMI stickers and pull circuit breakers, if necessary. I'll never forget being on my knees and bending around behind the F/O seat looking for some circuit breaker in Bradly after being up all night. It would have been much faster had we just blocked back in and let the mechanic do it....but that wasn't our procedure. I do remember once in Maui when I said F it and just blocked back in and let MX deal with it. Never heard a word...
Click to expand...

Some things we can "flight crew placard" after conferring with MX.

The bus has been oddly reliable so I've probably done two or three the last ten years.
 
DE727UPS said:
Do the real airlines do crew deferrals? I remember for years at Brown, if something broke after push, you just blocked back in and has the mechanic take care of it. Well, somebody decided there was a better way. UPS got the FAA to buy off on crew deferrals. Something breaks after push, you talk to the mechanic on the interphone and tell him to have a nice day. Then you call MMOC (UPS speak for central maintenance in SDF) and tell them what's broke. Now the tell you what to write in the logbook, verbatim, but you get to sign it, like a mechanic, and fill out DMI stickers and pull circuit breakers, if necessary. I'll never forget being on my knees and bending around behind the F/O seat looking for some circuit breaker in Bradly after being up all night. It would have been much faster had we just blocked back in and let the mechanic do it....but that wasn't our procedure. I do remember once in Maui when I said F it and just blocked back in and let MX deal with it. Never heard a word...
Click to expand...

Like was said, we have certain items we can placard ourselves. If anything requires an (M) procedure beyond pulling a CB or an approved system reset, we go back to the gate. It's gotten pretty quick as MX now sends us an ACARS with exactly what to write in the book. When I first got here I was amazed at what a big deal they made about crew placarding. At my previous gig we placarded almost everything that didn't require an (M) procedure.
 
Same. What to write, where to put the sticker, etc.

"put a line through the the red numbers on line (whatever)"
 
“So you physically check the logbook?”


“Well, no, my FO does that for me.”


“So…. What exactly would you say you do here?”


“I have good flying skills. I am good at the art of flying. I fly the goddamn airplane so the FO doesn’t have to. Can’t you understand?! What the hell is the matter with you people!”
 
The direction this thread has gone and some of the stuff posted has me simultaneously fascinated, satisfied, and but also with, uh, questions.
 
So just to recap. per usual, k4u went off on something stupid and accused someone else of being a liar. He was then soundly put back in his place by several others with lots of experience, who said they do the same thing as the person k4u accused of being a liar. Did I get that right?
 
mwflyer said:
So just to recap. per usual, k4u went off on something stupid and accused someone else of being a liar. He was then soundly put back in his place by several others with lots of experience, who said they do the same thing as the person k4u accused of being a liar. Did I get that right?
Click to expand...

You left off the part where he now mysteriously disappears and never acknowledges his being wrong.
 
///AMG said:
As a FO, even I read the write up and the corresponding MEL. I thought that was kind of the expectation for pilots. We didn't have MELs in the military, but rather "open" discrepancies (i.e. deferrable items), which is kind of the same idea. Some of those write ups are more written in MX speak, but the important ones are typically written in a short hand that idiot pilot can still understand. I read these things because I have had many experiences over the years of the "cannot duplicate on deck" write up and sign off, and it is useful to know what was actually done. I don't have anywhere near that level of experience in my current 121 ride (I'm basically just gaining experience at the moment, and also not trying to sound like an idiot when the CA asks me about it), but for my mil one, yes, I can fairly accurately stink check an open gripe and figure out how deeply they have actually delved into the problem......in the sense that over the years, I have learned things like "step one for solving any problem", followed by "step two: the path of least resistance with this particular system/component", followed by "step three: we swapped the left box with the right box, but we still aren't convinced", ultimately followed by "did a whole bunch of MX and we replaced components/checked wires/most likely actually fixed it". I think there is probably an equivalent time vs effort matrix applied in any MX department, and I'm not hating on it, I just like to know where we are with things. I'm still flying it, but at least I know what to possibly expect, and perhaps will be armed with the ability to help out on my write up, should it re-occur.

Also @knot4u, legitimately interested, what makes maintaining other aircraft more interesting than airliners?
Click to expand...
As a Flight Engineer I was both operations and maintenance at the same time. Let me tell you about the conflict of interest that generated. A good FE always kept a downer in his pocket in case we stopped at NAS Key West for fuel.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top