From the Frontier (Union) Perspective...

[wheelsup]

You can pretend all you want, but our ticket prices have remained steady while other fees have been created and increased. That's called smart business.

That's called increasing ticket prices. You're right, increasing ticket prices is smart business, especially doing it the way they are doing it (sneaky).

When you go buy ice cream and the 1.5 qt cost what the 1.75 qt cost 1 year ago which cost the same as the 2 qt did 3 years ago are they increasing the product cost or keeping it the same?

Wait, I already know how you would answer that. "Prices have remained steady".

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

That's called increasing ticket prices. You're right, increasing ticket prices is smart business, especially doing it the way they are doing it (sneaky).

When you go buy ice cream and the 1.5 qt cost what the 1.75 qt cost 1 year ago which cost the same as the 2 qt did 3 years ago are they increasing the product cost or keeping it the same?

Wait, I already know how you would answer that. "Prices have remained steady".

They didn't increase the price of the ticket, they added an additional fee. You don't have to check a bag, but if you do you get charged for it. If you only bring a carryon bag then you're not paying anything more. Your argument doesn't make any sense.

 

[wheelsup]

They didn't increase the price of the ticket, they added an additional fee. You don't have to check a bag, but if you do you get charged for it. If you only bring a carryon bag then you're not paying anything more. Your argument doesn't make any sense.

Have you considered politics as a career?

 

[Airdale]

You can pretend all you want, but our ticket prices have remained steady while other fees have been created and increased. That's called smart business.

Raising ticket prices or charging for commodities are all one in the same, wouldn't you agree?

I agree with Wheelsup, its just how business works. If you say that pilot salaries didn't effect the revenue at Airways, than how can low pilot salaries make a company thrive? For example, the comments about Republic being cheap labor allows RAH to thrive. That statement doesn't hold water if pilot salaries are such a small fraction of a companies expense's.

Mesa and Colgan have very low pilot salaries, but why are they not in the same cash position as Republic? Why didn't they make any bids to take over a Major brand?

Like wheels said, the market will determine what a pilot is worth. Not just one market though. Supply and demand of employees willing to do the job and supply and demand of the end result product.

The problem I see, is that the airline business models are flawed. The airline industry is flawed. Changes have to be made. Everyone likes to dwell on the past and how much pilots used to make, well where was that money coming from? Why were pilots paid so high? What made such a lucrative career hit rock bottom?

I think the answer is because it was doomed to hit rock bottom from the start! It is a very very complicated industry, and not a single pilot on this forum or probably anywhere on the line knows how to fix it. But yet, everyone inputs their opinion, as IF the Republic pilots are to blame for the company business decisions.

Yes, its ashame for the Frontier pilots and the industry compared to what was "once" a great career. But change is happening and it will continue to occur regardless of what anybody thinks. Unions will never have the ground to stand on to demand such high salaries ever again. It is a thing of the past. We all know its not what we want, but again, you either play the game or you quit.

You work with your union to negotiate the best CBA you can. Thats about all you can do.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Have you considered politics as a career?

I'm a union rep. I'm already a politician.

But I actually do think your argument is ridiculous. A businessman that flies with only a carryon bag and a computer case hasn't seen his travel price increase at all. Only the family carrying a few bags has seen their prices go up because of the checked bag fees. Upgrade fees and WiFi fees are purely voluntary and WiFi is a brand new feature.

 

[Airdale]

I'm a union rep. I'm already a politician.

But I actually do think your argument is ridiculous. A businessman that flies with only a carryon bag and a computer case hasn't seen his travel price increase at all. Only the family carrying a few bags has seen their prices go up because of the checked bag fees. Upgrade fees and WiFi fees are purely voluntary and WiFi is a brand new feature.

But those fees are revenue. Ticket prices are revenue. At the end of the day, they all go in the same book. Passenger fees, whether they be tickets or checked bags, are still increasing the cost for a majority of travelers. They sell you a cheap hamburger, but tell you at the last minute that the bun is extra. Either way, you're still paying for lunch.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Raising ticket prices or charging for commodities are all one in the same, wouldn't you agree?

They're both revenue generating ideas, but they are not the same. One is smart, one is not.

I agree with Wheelsup, its just how business works. If you say that pilot salaries didn't effect the revenue at Airways, than how can low pilot salaries make a company thrive?

They can't unless the difference is astronomical. If Delta was paying $350/hr and United was paying $100/hr then you would see a slight competitive difference, but $50/hr would be unnoticeable. Delta and AirTran could pay the exact same pilot wages, but our CASM would still be several cents less because of our other costs. We could actually pay our pilots 50% more than Delta and still have a lower overall CASM.

 

[Airdale]

They're both revenue generating ideas, but they are not the same. One is smart, one is not.



They can't unless the difference is astronomical. If Delta was paying $350/hr and United was paying $100/hr then you would see a slight competitive difference, but $50/hr would be unnoticeable. Delta and AirTran could pay the exact same pilot wages, but our CASM would still be several cents less because of our other costs. We could actually pay our pilots 50% more than Delta and still have a lower overall CASM.

So would you not agree then that Republic has a good business model - thus far?

I see the things Bedford has done in the last few years and most recently. I think he has been planting seeds for his own big airline since he stepped foot in the door. He knows better, thanks to Independance and the others, of what NOT to do in establishing a branded operation. I think he's writing his own model. But thats just my opinion.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

So would you not agree then that Republic has a good business model - thus far?

So far, yes. This latest move could either prove to be brilliant or disastrous. Time will tell. But to be honest, almost all regionals have a great business model: guaranteed profit. Cost-plus arrangements are amazing ways to do business if you can get it.

I see the things Bedford has done in the last few years and most recently. I think he has been planting seeds for his own big airline since he stepped foot in the door.

He's been planting seeds long before he got to Republic. The entire reason he had a falling out with NWA management and left Mesaba was because he wanted to branch out and explore new options with his company and NWA management refused to allow it. NWA hired Phil Trenary to run Pinnacle simply because he was the anti-Bedford: he would do whatever NWA told him without any ambitions to branch out. Bedford has always wanted to run a huge airline operation without strings attached. He's somewhat scary in that vein. Very reminiscent of Lorenzo and his Texas Air Corp. monstrosity.

 

[Baronman]

Bedford had been smart....smart for investors, smart for himself. He's maintained low costs (pilots) and will now bring those low costs to other airlines. I was just reading an article saying the success going forward may hinge upon him maintaining those low costs.

Airdale- Just to be clear...You stand to benefit from these moves, maybe a quicker upgrade some day, a bigger RJ to fly etc. But common man, you think Bedford is going to stray from his bread and butter?? His bread and butter are low costs.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

His bread and butter is fee for departure contracts where you make money regardless. He's making the same mistake JO made in hawaii.

If he REALLY is smart he'll take every F9 manager and exec and get rid of the same ones in RAH. They're the ones with experience necessary to run an actual airline that sells tickets.

I have little doubt the corporate culture at Frontier is a lot more desireable than the corporate culture at Republic Holdings.

 

[falconvalley]

His bread and butter is fee for departure contracts where you make money regardless. He's making the same mistake JO made in hawaii.

If he REALLY is smart he'll take every F9 manager and exec and get rid of the same ones in RAH. They're the ones with experience necessary to run an actual airline that sells tickets.

I have little doubt the corporate culture at Frontier is a lot more desireable than the corporate culture at Republic Holdings.

WAFFA LOL? I'm sure the Frontier management has some good experience and perhaps way better than what RAH has, but JO and Hawaii is the result of little understanding of Hawaiian culture. JO thought he could just drive in at full speed and take over. NOT!

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

I don't think so, not completely anyway, but that certainly was a major part of it. And that reinforces my point -- someone with experience running a real airline that sells tickets probably would not have made those decisions. Especially since BB is repeating the experience. Maybe BB's aim in hawaii is to put Mesa out of business so he can scoop up some of the United flying

 

[falconvalley]

I don't think so, not completely anyway, but that certainly was a major part of it. And that reinforces my point -- someone with experience running a real airline that sells tickets probably would not have made those decisions. Especially since BB is repeating the experience. Maybe BB's aim in hawaii is to put Mesa out of business so he can scoop up some of the United flying

Hehe pipe dream maybe, but then again that guy always surprises me. I think Bedford knows his limits though. One of the biggest factors in Hawaii thus far has been the company's inability to sell tickets, yes. Mokulele is trying, just like Go!, to take some of that market for themselves. Neither is having much luck because of some basic marketing issues. Go! just went at it too hard, too fast. Mokulele is taking the slower route. Both routes involve spending money and both routes can fail. RAH has the money, however. Hopefully, patience and a growing marketing campaign with prevail. It certainly hasn't been looking good, but imo this is not because of Bedford's lack of experience in selling tickets. Hawaii is a tough market to get into.

 

[wheelsup]

A businessman that flies with only a carryon bag and a computer case hasn't seen his travel price increase at all. Only the family carrying a few bags has seen their prices go up because of the checked bag fees.

You seriously need to stop, you're killing me :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:!

I'm not sure how to tell you this, but when people travel on an airplane they check bags. In doing so they see an increased bottom line out the door ticket price vs. before when it was free. Higher ticket costs now vs. before = increased ticket prices.

 

[Trip7]

You seriously need to stop, you're killing me :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:!

I'm not sure how to tell you this, but when people travel on an airplane they check bags. In doing so they see an increased bottom line out the door ticket price vs. before when it was free. Higher ticket costs now vs. before = increased ticket prices.

Wheels you're killing me. Your reasoning shows you have little to no understanding of business and economics. Todd's statement is completely true. I can assure any accountant will tell you baggage fees would not be added in an income statement as ticket revenue.

Did you take any economics or business classes in college?

 

[wheelsup]

Customers don't care if you have 2 lines on the balance sheet, one for ticket sales, and one for baggage "fees" or if you combine them. They care about the bottom line cost of their ticket and that has gone up for the typical passenger. If it hadn't, they wouldn't be making any money off of these new "fees".

You're not comparing apples to apples. A $300 ticket that included food, bags, seat selection, etc. is not the same as a $300 ticket that doesn't include food, bags, or seat selection. This is getting dumb.

Bottom line, airlines have increased ticket prices, which we all agree was needed.

 

[wheelsup]

But don't take my word for it, because while logical I didn't take any accounting classes in college. I wonder if Doug Parker did?

"At the end of the day, it's a price increase," says US Airways Chairman and Chief Executive Douglas Parker.

Baggage Becomes a Big-Ticket Item

Actually now that I think back to it I did take some businesses classes as required per ERAU's degree. Although whats it matter, I don't remember anything accept for elastic and inelastic demand curves.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

You seriously need to stop, you're killing me :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:!

I'm not sure how to tell you this, but when people travel on an airplane they check bags. In doing so they see an increased bottom line out the door ticket price vs. before when it was free. Higher ticket costs now vs. before = increased ticket prices.

Hate to break it to you, but I've never checked a bag in my life. My father has been traveling on business since well before I was born, and he's never checked bags except on family trips, either. Lots of people never check bags. You're pretty clueless.

This is getting dumb.

That's for sure.

Bottom line, airlines have increased ticket prices, which we all agree was needed.

Bottom line, no they didn't.

But don't take my word for it, because while logical I didn't take any accounting classes in college. I wonder if Doug Parker did?

Notice that Doogie doesn't use the words "ticket" or "fare." Apparently Doogie isn't quite as dense as you.

 

[wheelsup]

Hate to break it to you, but I've never checked a bag in my life. My father has been traveling on business since well before I was born, and he's never checked bags except on family trips, either. Lots of people never check bags. You're pretty clueless.

And you're a jerk for calling me clueless...just go back from a 4 day, almost every leg full and 30-40 checked bags on the load sheet.

Notice that Doogie doesn't use the words "ticket" or "fare." Apparently Doogie isn't quite as dense as you.

WHAT ELSE DOES US AIRWAYS SELL? TIRES?????

I'd be interested in hearing others thoughts, maybe I'm just being retarded here. I must be, the way you defend it. Maybe I'm the only one (besides Doug Parker) looking at it as an increase.