From the Frontier (Union) Perspective...
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taildragger173
Well-Known Member
I hear Great Lakes is purchasing United.
I cant wait to see a 777 with a tail logo for McCook Nebraska on it
Baronman
Well-Known Member
What would you do if you are one of F9 pilots?
F9 Pilots have been on the ropes for a while, this isn't really new territory for them. I imagine it's a situation that they hadn't foreseen. Imagine Republic demanding you to give up all scope knowing they have a huge contingent of pilots willing to do your job for considerably less.
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
Devil's advocate (and that's really all I'm doing). Would it be a better option if Republic to demand repayment up-front, and just let F9 fizzle away into history?
Baronman
Well-Known Member
Better that they fizzle away. Maybe.
Again look at the precedent this is setting. It's tough looking at it from the inside, the potential benefits it may have for you short-term may change how you view this.
Think of it as....maybe an American Airlines pilot looking at it, with no dog in the fight. Do you think he would say, 1. "This is a good thing for the industry," 2. "This really has little impact on the industry going forward," or 3. "This has negative implications going forward."
But in the case of acquisitions, I think a buyout from Jetblue (whch had been much rumored) or even from United (even if it involved job cuts to get planes/gates/routes) would have been easier to stomach.
Again look at the precedent this is setting. It's tough looking at it from the inside, the potential benefits it may have for you short-term may change how you view this.
Think of it as....maybe an American Airlines pilot looking at it, with no dog in the fight. Do you think he would say, 1. "This is a good thing for the industry," 2. "This really has little impact on the industry going forward," or 3. "This has negative implications going forward."
But in the case of acquisitions, I think a buyout from Jetblue (whch had been much rumored) or even from United (even if it involved job cuts to get planes/gates/routes) would have been easier to stomach.
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
I hardly know enough about what's going on to know how I feel about it.
Just saying . . . I wonder what everyone would say if F9 vanished.
Just saying . . . I wonder what everyone would say if F9 vanished.
Baronman
Well-Known Member
Really looking at F9 as a small player.
Would it better that 1 small player out of a group of 10 (figuratively speaking) fizzle away or that the one small player get crippled and spread his illness to 3 or 4 others effectively debilitating them?
Big picture here man...I know if I was sitting down talking to an F9 pilot it would be tough. If he was telling me how he's gonna lose his job, etc it would be a tough call.
Step back and look.
Would it better that 1 small player out of a group of 10 (figuratively speaking) fizzle away or that the one small player get crippled and spread his illness to 3 or 4 others effectively debilitating them?
Big picture here man...I know if I was sitting down talking to an F9 pilot it would be tough. If he was telling me how he's gonna lose his job, etc it would be a tough call.
Step back and look.
Are you talking to yourself?
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
What would you do if you are one of F9 pilots?
Tell Republic to burn in hell. Giving up all scope protections is just too high of a price to pay. I'm not even sure that it's legal. This could be the first test of the new Bond-McCaskil legislation. It seems as though Bedford is trying to do what AMR did to the TWA employees: stop a seniority integration process in its tracks and force the acquired employees to simply take a crap sandwich. The problem is that new legislation doesn't allow such a thing (theoretically), but Bedford might be trying to test that legislation. It hasn't been tested yet.
Airdale
Well-Known Member
Welcome to capitalism at its finest. Bad time to be a weak company, great time to be a strong company. Republic has a strong stance and Bedford has balls his underwear can't hold.
I really truely feel for whoever is on the receiving end of Republics Airline Empire.
That being said, there isn't much that can be done. To be expanding and acquiring other companies in such a bad economy, is a sign of how much power Republic holds. Bedford has his shareholds wrapped around his finger, and that finger, is in their wallets. More like that hand.
You can bad mouth the current events all you want, but you're either naive or just plain stupid. Because companies grow. They need to grow, they need to expand. This is how they become very large players. As a Republic pilot, we need to appreciate that in these rough times, we're working for a company that is incredibly strong. While these deals may really hurt for those on the receiving end, Bedford is securing Republic's future and giving us a higher career path without having to go start at the bottom somewhere else.
Is this at someone elses's expense? Of course, but would you expect any less in Corporate America? Welcome to the game folks, if you don't like it, don't play it. The bottom line is, Frontier and Midwest are WEAK. Remember what I said above? This is not a good time to be a weak company. Buyouts do happen, and those chances of a buyout greatly increase in this economy. Kick and scream ALL you want, because nobody above this infantile group of Airline pilots really cares.
The real bottom line - Frontier and Midwest would cease to exist in a matter of months to a couple of years. The companies would liquidate, assests sold and all employees left without a job, a paycheck, benefits or a severance package. Flying today, unemployed tomorrow. Sure, go ahead and start at the bottom at a Legacy, when they're hiring in 5-10yrs.
Its unfortunate, but Frontier and Midwest pilots are backed against a wall. Republic is their only chance at saving some sort of job - even if it is until the Legacies hire again. Tell Republic to piss off, and you'll surely be unemployed in no time. You have to accept that your company has failed. What is your plan B? If its not working for Bedford, than you are not obligated to do so. But, you have no just cause for bad mouthing a company that is at least giving you an option because your employer has failed to secure your future. If anything, be pissed at your own management team for its faults. Remember, Republic is strong, your company is weak. Its simple capitalism.
Rather than piss an moan, everybody on both/three sides to this deal need to work together. It doesn't matter if you're a "Major" and Republic is a "Regional". Because this "Regional" just bought your weak Major. So get over that fact right off the bat. I don't even think Regional belongs in the same sentence as Republic, hopefully those will see the same.
There will be mergers. Downgrades. Upgrades. Base changes etc. etc. etc. The only way this will be fair, is if EVERYONE on all 3 sides ends up making some sacrifices/changes. The nature of the industry is that the employees of the purchasing company will hold the upper hand. Well WE, as the employees of the purchasing company, need to lower that hand and be realistic. But we at Republic also need to realize that the companies we have just purchased, have better work rules and pay. If we are buying these companies, than we should be entitled to those better work rules and pay, not just the aircraft and the routes. Not just for our own sake, but for the sake of those at the buyout company.
This is the ONLY thing that matters! The CBA - the workrules and the pay. The intergration is going to go as the arbitrator wants it to go. Getting pissed and irrate solves nothing. Remember, it should be fair to ALL 3 sides, I don't give a flippin burger if you are a Major Airline pilot and you've been there for 20 years. You just got bought out in save of the doors closing. Deal with it, or move on. Your choice. The integration should not be a staple (and it WONT, mark my words). It should also not be a DOH. No way senior RAH guys are giving up their numbers to move halfway down the list, and they shouldn't have to. "But we were major airline pilots flying Airbus aicraft!" Again, nobody gives an eyelash. Your company faced doom - now you have an option. If your managment team was strong and creative enough to prevent the folding of the company, you wouldn't be in this position. So sack up, face the reality. Don't like the game, don't play it. Here's your chance to get out.
There are many more issues at stake. But the point is this - if everyone involved doesn't work together and be willing to make sacrifices, its going to be a long hard battle in the trenches, but if this is done right, everybody could benefit. The merged pilots will have a more stable and secure future. The RAH pilots just got a career upgrade without having to start all over. This could benefit everyone, but you need to put aside the unrealistic issues and focus on what is important.
I really truely feel for whoever is on the receiving end of Republics Airline Empire.
That being said, there isn't much that can be done. To be expanding and acquiring other companies in such a bad economy, is a sign of how much power Republic holds. Bedford has his shareholds wrapped around his finger, and that finger, is in their wallets. More like that hand.
You can bad mouth the current events all you want, but you're either naive or just plain stupid. Because companies grow. They need to grow, they need to expand. This is how they become very large players. As a Republic pilot, we need to appreciate that in these rough times, we're working for a company that is incredibly strong. While these deals may really hurt for those on the receiving end, Bedford is securing Republic's future and giving us a higher career path without having to go start at the bottom somewhere else.
Is this at someone elses's expense? Of course, but would you expect any less in Corporate America? Welcome to the game folks, if you don't like it, don't play it. The bottom line is, Frontier and Midwest are WEAK. Remember what I said above? This is not a good time to be a weak company. Buyouts do happen, and those chances of a buyout greatly increase in this economy. Kick and scream ALL you want, because nobody above this infantile group of Airline pilots really cares.
The real bottom line - Frontier and Midwest would cease to exist in a matter of months to a couple of years. The companies would liquidate, assests sold and all employees left without a job, a paycheck, benefits or a severance package. Flying today, unemployed tomorrow. Sure, go ahead and start at the bottom at a Legacy, when they're hiring in 5-10yrs.
Its unfortunate, but Frontier and Midwest pilots are backed against a wall. Republic is their only chance at saving some sort of job - even if it is until the Legacies hire again. Tell Republic to piss off, and you'll surely be unemployed in no time. You have to accept that your company has failed. What is your plan B? If its not working for Bedford, than you are not obligated to do so. But, you have no just cause for bad mouthing a company that is at least giving you an option because your employer has failed to secure your future. If anything, be pissed at your own management team for its faults. Remember, Republic is strong, your company is weak. Its simple capitalism.
Rather than piss an moan, everybody on both/three sides to this deal need to work together. It doesn't matter if you're a "Major" and Republic is a "Regional". Because this "Regional" just bought your weak Major. So get over that fact right off the bat. I don't even think Regional belongs in the same sentence as Republic, hopefully those will see the same.
There will be mergers. Downgrades. Upgrades. Base changes etc. etc. etc. The only way this will be fair, is if EVERYONE on all 3 sides ends up making some sacrifices/changes. The nature of the industry is that the employees of the purchasing company will hold the upper hand. Well WE, as the employees of the purchasing company, need to lower that hand and be realistic. But we at Republic also need to realize that the companies we have just purchased, have better work rules and pay. If we are buying these companies, than we should be entitled to those better work rules and pay, not just the aircraft and the routes. Not just for our own sake, but for the sake of those at the buyout company.
This is the ONLY thing that matters! The CBA - the workrules and the pay. The intergration is going to go as the arbitrator wants it to go. Getting pissed and irrate solves nothing. Remember, it should be fair to ALL 3 sides, I don't give a flippin burger if you are a Major Airline pilot and you've been there for 20 years. You just got bought out in save of the doors closing. Deal with it, or move on. Your choice. The integration should not be a staple (and it WONT, mark my words). It should also not be a DOH. No way senior RAH guys are giving up their numbers to move halfway down the list, and they shouldn't have to. "But we were major airline pilots flying Airbus aicraft!" Again, nobody gives an eyelash. Your company faced doom - now you have an option. If your managment team was strong and creative enough to prevent the folding of the company, you wouldn't be in this position. So sack up, face the reality. Don't like the game, don't play it. Here's your chance to get out.
There are many more issues at stake. But the point is this - if everyone involved doesn't work together and be willing to make sacrifices, its going to be a long hard battle in the trenches, but if this is done right, everybody could benefit. The merged pilots will have a more stable and secure future. The RAH pilots just got a career upgrade without having to start all over. This could benefit everyone, but you need to put aside the unrealistic issues and focus on what is important.
pipepatrol
New Member
I agree that it seems like a good thing for the folks at RAH, but do you believe the effect will be good for the industry long term?
Baronman
Well-Known Member
Airdale..
Regional exactly is what Republic is. What really defines a regional? To most it would be a company that subcontracts from a Major. The Major determines where you fly, when, how, the marketing.
My understanding is that Republic has no significant ground service, no marketing dept, no training center, no call centers....no real infrastructure besides planes and pilots.
Has this served Republic well, yes. But don't confuse what the airline is. It's a regional. The contract is that of a Regional.
The pilot group has been the tool of Bedford. While your airline has grown and become "powerful," your management has taken advantage of you make no mistake. So pound your chest all you wish, the Republic pilots have little to show besides pictures of the shiny jets and a no junior man clause.
Sure this is capitalism, great. But make no mistake this is a bad precident. Be it Republic or be it Mesa or any other regional buying a carrier with a higher paid workforce. Higher paid jobs are going away in exchange for lower paid ones.
You guys are really in the drivers seat. Bedford can't accomplish what he wants without your help, hopefully you realize this..Are you guys smart enough to take advantage? Time will tell....
And if you think some F9 pilot is thanking his lucky stars that Republic came along to at best offer him his old job for less or at worst fire him or push him into an Embraer 170 for your wages, i think you're mistaken.
Regional exactly is what Republic is. What really defines a regional? To most it would be a company that subcontracts from a Major. The Major determines where you fly, when, how, the marketing.
My understanding is that Republic has no significant ground service, no marketing dept, no training center, no call centers....no real infrastructure besides planes and pilots.
Has this served Republic well, yes. But don't confuse what the airline is. It's a regional. The contract is that of a Regional.
The pilot group has been the tool of Bedford. While your airline has grown and become "powerful," your management has taken advantage of you make no mistake. So pound your chest all you wish, the Republic pilots have little to show besides pictures of the shiny jets and a no junior man clause.
Sure this is capitalism, great. But make no mistake this is a bad precident. Be it Republic or be it Mesa or any other regional buying a carrier with a higher paid workforce. Higher paid jobs are going away in exchange for lower paid ones.
You guys are really in the drivers seat. Bedford can't accomplish what he wants without your help, hopefully you realize this..Are you guys smart enough to take advantage? Time will tell....
And if you think some F9 pilot is thanking his lucky stars that Republic came along to at best offer him his old job for less or at worst fire him or push him into an Embraer 170 for your wages, i think you're mistaken.
Baronman
Well-Known Member
Amen. I don't think anyone but a Republic pilot would see this as a positive.
WalterSobchak
Well-Known Member
I agree. The tail is starting to wag the dog.
Clocks
Well-Known Member
It's good for republic pilots for the next few years. And no pilot acts or votes with any consideration beyond the next few years.
A seniority bump and new routes is what republic pilots are going to get. Beyond some half-hearted attempts at portraying "brotherhood", they're going to watch the frontier pilots get screwed with their pants on and reap the benefits.
And I'm not saying this from any sort of pedestal, I believe in my heart every pilot group would do the exact same thing. And I don't think there's anything the republic pilots could do if they wanted to. You could have copy/pasted Airdale's post from how any number of skywest pilots talked during the skywest-expressjet buyout time. Before long you'll be reading here or on other boards how no scope and a staple job is the right thing to do because expressje..I mean frontier, are having their jobs saved. We're all in this together...brotherhood...and all that crap.
Trip7
Well-Known Member
Airdale, from a business and common sense point of view that was one of the most well written posts I've ever seen on this board.
Folks, the man is right, Frontier and Midwest employees, not just pilots, have two choices, accept whatever Mr. Bedford wants, or head to the unemployment line.
Baronman, you're correct. Higher paid jobs are going away replaced by lower paid ones. Why, because the market does not support enough passenger demand to support all the higher paying jobs that are currently out there. Overcapacity. Once again there are two choices, higher paying jobs need to be completely eliminated(bankruptcy) or replaced with lower paying ones to have a remote chance of making money.
I'm a strong supporter of unions and management sitting together and going over ways not to maximize pay, but to maximize profit without taking advantage of labor.
Folks, the man is right, Frontier and Midwest employees, not just pilots, have two choices, accept whatever Mr. Bedford wants, or head to the unemployment line.
Baronman, you're correct. Higher paid jobs are going away replaced by lower paid ones. Why, because the market does not support enough passenger demand to support all the higher paying jobs that are currently out there. Overcapacity. Once again there are two choices, higher paying jobs need to be completely eliminated(bankruptcy) or replaced with lower paying ones to have a remote chance of making money.
I'm a strong supporter of unions and management sitting together and going over ways not to maximize pay, but to maximize profit without taking advantage of labor.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
I just threw up in my mouth a little. :banghead:
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