Trip7
Well-Known Member
Raising ticket prices is a tried and failed many times solution that simply does not work in this environment of overcapacity. The recession does not help either.
From the Frontier (Union) Perspective...
- Thread starter derg
- Start date
Raising ticket prices is a tried and failed many times solution that simply does not work in this environment of overcapacity. The recession does not help either.
Trip7
Well-Known Member
Why would you want to maximize pay if it drives your company into the red? Your maximized pay won't last very long. You even said yourself that companies like AA are being unreasonable. Maybe I phrased my statement wrong since profit comes after labor expenses are taken out. We should work together to maximize revenue and to make sure labor cost are within reason to promote job growth within the company.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
Ok so I guess the solution in your opinion is to work for free? OH wait nope they still aren't making money, maybe we should pay them to work! Yeah, that's it.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
I have a bare minimum that I'm willing to accept, and RJ pilots are not making that bare minimum. "Working with the company" when you're already being raped with horrible wages isn't acceptable. You guys need to be pattern bargaining to drive up RJ wages with each successive agreement.
The AMR pilots are already industry-leading, and the APA is asking for astronomical increases. That just isn't realistic, regardless of the fact that I think pilots are worth every penny that they're asking for.
Its similar to what happened to Delta, for example, and the concessions their pilots gave a few years ago, IMO. They're first asked to make concessions for the "good of the company", but the business model didn't seem to change, and the pilots are asked to concede again. Helping the company the first time? Ok. Company coming back and asking for more? Now there's a deeper underlying problem that no concessions will fix.....the stereotypical "money pit".
Either way, pilots / FAs / mechanics / rampers / customer service people / admin folks, etc, etc, shouldn't have to pay the price for a lousy business model thats bleeding money away. That's plain wrong any way you slice it.
I fully agree that what the pilot group tries to bargain for should be realistic while also being fair.
falconvalley
Absentee Dad of the OOTSK, Runner, Cat Frustrator
You didn't address his question, though.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Sure I did. If I can't make the bare minimum and the company still stay out of the red, then the company can go out of business and I'll take my full pay till the last day. I'm not going to subsidize the company's failed business plan out of my own wallet.
Trip7
Well-Known Member
The only solution is survival of the fittest. This will result in bankruptcies, mergers, staple jobs, and many furloughs. That's the only way to get out of over capacity.
Shouldn't have to pay the price? Somehow or another they will. The pilots/FAs/Mechanics/rampers/customer service people/admin folks etc etc will indeed pay the price for a lousy business model. The price will be a permanent furlough. Just ask the Aloha and ATA folks.
pipepatrol
New Member
I tend to think Marcus is being more realistic than you. There must be a happy medium somewhere...
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
If everyone was paid the same wage (equipment dependent) then it would come down to which management team is better. Since people are willing to accept paycuts to keep their company going labor is subsidizing managements mistakes, and keeping companies alive. Hell every single legacy should be out of business right now the way they are run and the losses they have sustained. Somehow they keep swindling shareholders out of their money and keep plugging along.
Trip7
Well-Known Member
Completely Irrelevant. This is a capitalistic society. There will never be a situation where everyone is paid the same. Lets be realistic here.
The aviation business is so complex the blame can't be simply placed on "management mistake". It could just be a situation where an entire airline was simply beaten by another airline. In this era of significant overcapacity not every airline will be winners. Which leads to....
If your management team has been beaten by another airline's team to the point of near liquidation and your management team comes to you for help you have two simple choices. One, you can take your full pay to the last day and take yourself and your pride to the unemployment line, while your now unemployed pilot group becomes internet forum heros for "holding the line" OR you can take a reasonable paycut that allows your management team to live to fight another day, and allows you to continue to feed your family.
Disclaimer: In rare special cases where the intent of management is completely, utterly and obviously malicious and any amount of cooperation from labor would do more harm than good, it is well worth it to maintain full pay to the last day.
e.g. Eastern Airlines, Mesa Airlines
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
The entire idea of a union is un-capitalistic. Regulation in the airline industry is un-capitalistic.
My point about the pay cuts is still lost on you. US Airways was saved not by the pay cuts but by 3rd parties who had a vested interest in their survival. The pilots could have worked for free and they still were losing money faster than they could burn it.
Paying a Delta pilot $150/hr vs. $300/hr didn't allow Delta to survive. The cost difference with the increased employee costs is negligible to the entire cost of the ticket.
You say raising ticket prices isn't the answer. So what is? Employers charging employees to work? Bottom line they have to increase yields.
My point about the pay cuts is still lost on you. US Airways was saved not by the pay cuts but by 3rd parties who had a vested interest in their survival. The pilots could have worked for free and they still were losing money faster than they could burn it.
Paying a Delta pilot $150/hr vs. $300/hr didn't allow Delta to survive. The cost difference with the increased employee costs is negligible to the entire cost of the ticket.
You say raising ticket prices isn't the answer. So what is? Employers charging employees to work? Bottom line they have to increase yields.
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
The entire idea of a union IS capitalistic. It's the very nature of capitalism, or did you mean that a union is un-Capitalistic where in Capitalism has a large C?
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
wheelsup is right on most of what he's saying. USAirways was losing so much money that the pilots could have worked for free for the last couple of years before the integration and they still would have been teetering towards liquidation. The cash burn was absolutely incredible, and pilot wages was a fraction of it. For most of the post-9/11 timeframe, USAirways was losing so much money that every employee, not just the pilots, could have worked for absolutely free and the company still would have been losing hundreds upon hundreds of millions. It was a complete and utter disaster.
I disagree that ticker price increases is necessarily the answer, however. You don't have to increase ticket prices to boost revenue. AirTran has increased ancillary revenue from $50 million to over $300 million in just two years with checked bag fees, WiFi, upgrades, etc... For an airline with only $2.6 billion in annual revenue, that $300 million is a huge amount of money, and it will account for our record profit that is expected this year. With a deregulated environment, it's very difficult to raise ticket prices, especially in the age of the internet with price search engines like Expedia. The answer is better cost control in non-labor areas of the balance sheet, higher ancillary revenues, and better customer service.
I disagree that ticker price increases is necessarily the answer, however. You don't have to increase ticket prices to boost revenue. AirTran has increased ancillary revenue from $50 million to over $300 million in just two years with checked bag fees, WiFi, upgrades, etc... For an airline with only $2.6 billion in annual revenue, that $300 million is a huge amount of money, and it will account for our record profit that is expected this year. With a deregulated environment, it's very difficult to raise ticket prices, especially in the age of the internet with price search engines like Expedia. The answer is better cost control in non-labor areas of the balance sheet, higher ancillary revenues, and better customer service.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
Unions are a socialist mentality.
Airdale
Well-Known Member
The only thing Republic doesn't have, is ground service or a branded service. But that's changing quickly now isn't it?
You can't put Republic in the same class as any other regional. Sorry dude, but the numbers don't lie. This entire time Bedford has been setting a course to transition from a Regional to its own branded Major. That'll surely break some hearts won't it?
And apparently you didn't read the part where I said its up to the collective pilot group(s) (with the acquistions) to make sure a fair contract is hammered out with industry leading pay and work rules.
The bottom line - again - is to hammer out the contract. Because the mergers will go through whether the pilots want them to or not. Is it bad for the industry? Some think it is, but when Major branded carriers become so weak that a "regional" can purchase them, tell me just how good this industry is? It sucks. Its been going down the toilet for years and all this complaining and whining on these message boards has done NOTHING to stop it. And I got news for ya, it won't do anything to stop it.
And you're right, the pilot group has been the tool for Bedford. But you have to remember, our current contract dates quite few years back, prior to the growth of the Embraer's. We haven't had the opportunity to raise the bar. Now we have a lot of opportunities to do so. But surely nothing will be good enough for the critics.
And no, I don't care what a disgruntled F9 pilot thinks about the deal. They can either work with our pilot group to fight tooth and nail so that they don't lose much or they can walk. Again, my management team isn't running the companies financial books into the ground. I think its in the best interest of the F9 and Midwest pilots to choose to work with our pilot group, so that we can minimize the amount of "damage" this is going to do. But if they're going to take the holier than thou attitude from the start, than I could care less.
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
Really? Here I thought that a union was a way for a person and group of persons to leverage his or her work product ( a commodity ) for profit.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
Apart from the wifi Airtran's "ancillary revenue" is essentially increased ticket prices. When something used to be free (picking the seats you wanted, checking 2 bags, food, etc.) and you start charging for that service you have increased your ticket prices. Just not on orbitz.com.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
I'll tell you what is capitalistic about that. The owners will close that factory and transfer it to the south where unions are less prevalent. I know a guy whose father owns 2 factories and did just that...
Pay is based on what the market will bear. Unions change that equation.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
You can pretend all you want, but our ticket prices have remained steady while other fees have been created and increased. That's called smart business.
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