Flight Training Magzine article on "Sully"

[Orange Anchor]

Not making any assumptions, is it probably true many aviatiors on this forum have been flying professionally less than 15 to 20 years?

A bit longer back on the calendar but in '78 when I was hired, I started at probationary pay of $600 for the first six months and a huge raise to $750 the second six months. After that we went to about $35 -50k as we added years and moved to bigger airplanes. Then too, Capts were still under $100k.

But the relationship between labor and management was different and the time away from home was also different. Your airline job was not an all consuming event.

 

[ladder360]

From the perspective of someone who would eventually like to make a paycheck flying, I take this article for what it's worth - which is pretty much a lousy sales pitch.

The guys who would read the article and say, "Yeah! All these salty captains are just bitter and past their prime" are just looking through rose colored glasses anyway. They'll get their smack in the face with reality soon enough.

For the author to mention the non-pay benefits is kind of like Murry, the assistant general manager of Jimbo's Neighborhood Used Auto Sales telling you, "Yeah, I know this 1984 DeLorean only starts half the time, but all the chicks will want your schmeckle."

 

[MFT1Air]

A bit longer back on the calendar but in '78 when I was hired, I started at probationary pay of $600 for the first six months and a huge raise to $750 the second six months. After that we went to about $35 -50k as we added years and moved to bigger airplanes. Then too, Capts were still under $100k.

But the relationship between labor and management was different and the time away from home was also different. Your airline job was not an all consuming event.

Thanks a bunch. I truly needed that viewpoint. So, if I may ask. . .the $600 a month. . .how many hours was the average when you started?

 

[Orange Anchor]

Thanks a bunch. I truly needed that viewpoint. So, if I may ask. . .the $600 a month. . .how many hours was the average when you started?

I got hired with about 3200 hrs, 2500 was jet. Type rated ATP Lr-jet, CE-500 and B707/720 along with FE turbojet. CFI/II SMEL. Then too, the drop-dead hire age was 33. Over 33 and you were toast as a candidate for airline flying.

We did about 65-68hrs a month as a line holder. Rigs were GREAT...you are on the clock, you fly. It was not uncommon to log 6 or 7hrs a day and a 4 day trip was easily 25-28hrs pay. While on property for the first round of contract negotiations, the question was what did we want? Pay was NOT the first issue. Scheduling and trips was. ie lifestyle.

The relationship between the company and the pilots was quite good. I remember we had a chance to get a bunch of new 737s but to do that, the training section would have to be modified. It was... over drinks at the local hotel according to the story. The company got the jets. The line guys got more seats and the company expanded. When the inbound jets were on the line, the training went back to the old rules.

 

[mshunter]

From an aviation viewpoint, I'm believing experience speaks volumes. (. . .as it does for probably every other endeavor.)

Before captains became captains making the money they make, I'm kinda curious what money they made way back when.

Not making any assumptions, is it probably true many aviatiors on this forum have been flying professionally less than 15 to 20 years? Are many less than 40 years old still trying to support families and BUILD aviation careers as opposed to nearing the end? If so, how can anyone criticize another having "successfully" completed an aviation career? Moreover, I'd ask those "veterans" how much they were making twenty years ago before academies and high student debt. I'd ask a veteran how things were back when they were in the same position as many this thread are in their careers.

I'm confused about the comparisons made by professionals new to Part 121 and 135 flying. New to this era are the regional jets, so what were less than 1000TT pilots doing "back in the day?" How much money were they making? How much were regional captains making 10-15 years ago before they transitioned to right seats of legacy airlines? If you weren't flying either corporate or Part 121, were salaries "all that stellar" for Part 135 flying or other flying endeavors? Were you flying with an established aviation entity or were you CFIng?

I think you fail to see the point. All the "old timers" I know of, see what has become of the airlines as a sham. The pay has not kept on par with inflation, and infact in some cases has gone the other way. The benefits have goten worse, and pentions have gone the way of 401k's (total bs when it comes to retirement that your livelyhood is based on the economy doing good. I'd hate to be retired on a 401K right now). The people who run the airlines now, have become more like the AIG execs., and as a whole the industry has gone downhill. I may be an outsider lookign in to the 121 world, ut from everytthing I can summise, from watching it for the last 15 or so years, I am glad I don't want to fly 121. It just doesn't seem like a winning proposition anymore.

The days being paid for all the work that is done, rather than just the flying like what is done today, is what has lead to the disdane that most pilots have for the industry today.

 

[MFT1Air]

I think you fail to see the point. All the "old timers" I know of, see what has become of the airlines as a sham. The pay has not kept on par with inflation, and infact in some cases has gone the other way. The benefits have goten worse, and pentions have gone the way of 401k's (total bs when it comes to retirement that your livelyhood is based on the economy doing good. I'd hate to be retired on a 401K right now). The people who run the airlines now, have become more like the AIG execs., and as a whole the industry has gone downhill. I may be an outsider lookign in to the 121 world, ut from everytthing I can summise, from watching it for the last 15 or so years, I am glad I don't want to fly 121. It just doesn't seem like a winning proposition anymore.

The days being paid for all the work that is done, rather than just the flying like what is done today, is what has lead to the disdane that most pilots have for the industry today.

I do see your point, unfortunately. And you're right. . .the depressing but true aspect of what you say is that it's not solely within the aviation community. It's systemic to corporate America overall. Years ago, no one even thought or knew about a 401k. It was "do your time, get your 20 or 25" and retire comfortably on your retirement income and social security. Those days are gone. When demand exceeds supply, you're going to have problems.

Help me please. . .within the last, let's say two years, what legacy or major airlines have generated continuous quarterly profits? When you wish to get paid more, when you wish for more benefits. . .where's that money going to come from when the company is operating at a continual loss?

(Blood from a turnip!)

 

[Stone Cold]

...Help me please. . .within the last, let's say two years, what legacy or major airlines have generated continuous quarterly profits? When you wish to get paid more, when you wish for more benefits. . .where's that money going to come from when the company is operating at a continual loss?

What airline has not paid bonuses to management? Even with the losses, I believe the angst against management would not be so severe if the executives did not give each other golden parachutes and bonuses for laying people off, even with losses mounting on their decisions.

Just my opinion from being outside looking in on the airlines...

 

[MFT1Air]

What airline has not paid bonuses to management? Even with the losses, I believe the angst against management would not be so severe if the executives did not give each other golden parachutes and bonuses for laying people off, even with losses mounting on their decisions.

Just my opinion from being outside looking in on the airlines...

:yeahthat:

. . . which I can't argue either especially when the entity failed to generate a profit. Somehow the shareholders of publicly traded businesses need to really look into how a company bonus system works.

It's also another reason why I believe pilots should be degreed in order to better compete academically/financially with those non-aviators who control the business aspects of airline operations. Having both the aviation experience and financial prowess makes for a better organization.

(Strength in numbers) No need for government intervention.

 

[bafanguy]

:yeahthat:
Somehow the shareholders of publicly traded businesses need to really look into how a company bonus system works.

Well now, you're getting close to the meat of the issue. These bonuses are approved/granted by boards of directors who can be recalled by the shareholders for whom all the management carpetbaggers work. It's the job of these boards to oversee the operation of the company and steer it in the proper business/financial direction.

Where are they when the compensation/bonus decision is made ?

Problem is this is the ultimate Good Ole Boys network and they do seem to look after their own, no matter how badly they perform. I watched Widget Wonderland employees (shareholders) try to mount a shareholder effort to merely force the company to tie management pay/bonus to company financial performance; it failed by a 2:1 margin when shareholders voted on the proposal. I guess the owners have spoken despite the horrid performance of senior management starting with Ron "So Be It" Allen.

On the other hand, the amount of money involved in these bonuses is pretty small in the Big Financial Picture of an airline. Sure, it's a large number but airlines deal in large numbers.

It does little more in the overall scheme than to infuriate/demoralize the employees (always a bad idea in a service industry) who see it as a matter of principle.

Unfortunately, business has little to do with "principles". If companies continue to award these bonuses in this environment, there's little the worker bees can do.

Oh, and by the way, the concept that these bonuses encourage these crack management teams to stick around is total bunk. In fact, paying them to just go away is a pretty good idea in most cases. And they have proven it with Leo Millions and HIS crack management team.


Gotta laugh...might as well since you aren't going to change it. :laff::laff::laff::laff:

 

[mshunter]

I do see your point, unfortunately. And you're right. . .the depressing but true aspect of what you say is that it's not solely within the aviation community. It's systemic to corporate America overall. Years ago, no one even thought or knew about a 401k. It was "do your time, get your 20 or 25" and retire comfortably on your retirement income and social security. Those days are gone. When demand exceeds supply, you're going to have problems.

Help me please. . .within the last, let's say two years, what legacy or major airlines have generated continuous quarterly profits? When you wish to get paid more, when you wish for more benefits. . .where's that money going to come from when the company is operating at a continual loss?

(Blood from a turnip!)

There are so many places to trim the fat from the way airlines are run. Like AIG has recently shown, why do the execs. get retention bonuses when they put the company into the red? "Heres a million dollar rention bonus for doing such a fine job of ruining or company." <---Does this sound like a good buisness practice. They should be fired, not rewarded. And they shoulden't be afriad to charge a fare that will ensure the company won't go effin bankrupt! Either charge $100 dollars a seat for a seat that is worth $120, and go bankrupt, or charge $130 dollars for a seat worth $120 dollars, and go bk trying.

 

[MFT1Air]

Well now, you're getting close to the meat of the issue. These bonuses are approved/granted by boards of directors who can be recalled by the shareholders for whom all the management carpetbaggers work. It's the job of these boards to oversee the operation of the company and steer it in the proper business/financial direction.

Where are they when the compensation/bonus decision is made ?

Problem is this is the ultimate Good Ole Boys network and they do seem to look after their own, no matter how badly they perform. I watched Widget Wonderland employees (shareholders) try to mount a shareholder effort to merely force the company to tie management pay/bonus to company financial performance; it failed by a 2:1 margin when shareholders voted on the proposal. I guess the owners have spoken despite the horrid performance of senior management starting with Ron "So Be It" Allen.

On the other hand, the amount of money involved in these bonuses is pretty small in the Big Financial Picture of an airline. Sure, it's a large number but airlines deal in large numbers.

It does little more in the overall scheme than to infuriate/demoralize the employees (always a bad idea in a service industry) who see it as a matter of principle.

Unfortunately, business has little to do with "principles". If companies continue to award these bonuses in this environment, there's little the worker bees can do.

Oh, and by the way, the concept that these bonuses encourage these crack management teams to stick around is total bunk. In fact, paying them to just go away is a pretty good idea in most cases. And they have proven it with Leo Millions and HIS crack management team.


Gotta laugh...might as well since you aren't going to change it. :laff::laff::laff::laff:

Excellent point. Well addressed. I can't speak first hand from an aviation industry perspective, but you've heard Southwest Airlines for years being the leader in profits, sound management/business practices and overall employee satisfaction. Kinda wonder if anyone has attempted to mimic their business model. Seems to work although lately, with the economy downturn they missed on their quarterly earnings more than once.

 

[bafanguy]

Yep, SWA management is the rare beacon of light amongst airline management. But, the economy can get bad enough that even SWA management can't turn a profit. At that point, you'll know to abandon all hope.