Flight Training Magzine article on "Sully"

[surreal1221]

I'm not racing anywhere I stopped just short of my ifr at 200 hours. I can see that there isn't a future for me as a commercial pilot.

Well, best of luck to you.

But like I hinted at, some of us actually like to get PAID for our work performed.

I didn't come into this job to watch sunsets, sunrises, kids looking into the cockpit, staying at "great" overnights.

Now, I did it to make a living to provide for my family. None of which any of those other items can provide.

 

[MikeD]

Pays what?

Sure, it PAYS. . .of course, it's a job.

But what the author tried to say is:

Yes, the pay isn't what it was. . .but consider the cool sunrises and sunsets you get to see, consider the kids looking at you while they pass the cockpit, consider the free sodas and snacks, consider the "great" places you get to spend the night, consider the enjoyment of climbing out of an OVC layer in your CRJ-200/700/other RJ nonsense, as income.

To that, I say BS. Those items don't pay me, and I sure as hell am not going to have some guy writing for AOPA's flight training propaganda machine to tell me I need to consider those items as income. GTFO.

Haha. . .the race to the bottom continues

Very well said.

 

[jtrain609]

compensation isn't always monetary.

Until the bank starts cashing great views and time away from home, I'll take the cash.

Or I guess I won't, because I'm furloughed right now, and headed to law school in the fall.

 

[OldTownPilot]

Appears to me to be the usual Flight Training circle-jerk article.

Yawn!

All the more reason not to continue to support AOPA's Hobby Only centered nonsense.

Sorry AOPA, but some of us actually try to make a living flying planes around - safely.

Josh, there are lots of AOPA members that try to make a living flying planes around safely. But I'm sure you knew that already

Circle Jerk article? Maybe, but the ALPA mag isn't immune to those either.

Hobby only? sure they support the hobbyist, but certainly not exclusively.

I will say until the banks accept sunsets, i'll stick with the green.


Edit: The FT mag, is better than the normal AOPA mag for material for instructors anyway, and if I'm a member for their legal plan, I might as well get a mag for my money, and thats the best option for a lot of people.

Believe it or not, but your much hated AOPA and your much loved ALPA, do in fact work for a lot of common goals, especially in the safety realm that affect all of us equally.

 

[surreal1221]

Josh, there are lots of AOPA members that try to make a living flying planes around safely. But I'm sure you knew that already

Of course. . .but largely. . .their Flight Training mag is a circle-jerk propaganda machine that instills the sense that any flying is suppose to be hobby flying.

Sorry - wrong answer AOPA.

Not to be a dick, but when they called the last time to ask me why I didn't renew my membership I simply said that their interests are not the same as mine and that projecting an image of "flying is only about the hobby," they're alienating a portion of their membership who actually tries to make a living off of this craft and that when/if they change that tune and begin to tell people why it's important to protect pay, work rules, benefits that perhaps some of us wouldn't mind supporting the small GA guys again in the future. At least that's how I feel.

Josh, there are lots of AOPA members that try to make a living flying planes around safely. But I'm sure you knew that already

Circle Jerk article? Maybe, but the ALPA mag isn't immune to those either.

Hobby only? sure they support the hobbyist, but certainly not exclusively.

I will say until the banks accept sunsets, i'll stick with the green.

Since you added more. . .

The ALPA magazine is significantly different than AOPA's Flight Training.

AOPA's flight training advertises for membership. Members then receive it as a benefit of membership. AOPA's flight training advocates protecting the "hobby" aspect of general aviation and piloting.

ALPA magazine is supplied to the membership because they share similar traits; largely - protecting the professional ability of pilots to earn a living. ALPA does not advertise for membership to ALL pilots just those who would consider themselves to be professional pilots in the capacity of an air carrier, thus their exposure is limited to the interest group that is directly responsible for the content of the magazine.

 

[OldTownPilot]

In the end ALPA and AOPA work together on the really important stuff.

On the 121 vs 91 stuff, they balance each other out. Kinda like our government is supposed to work. I think its a decent system, and just as a void in our government could be bad, the two groups have found a way to balance each other out.

The group that 'we' both should be worried about is the ATA.

 

[surreal1221]

Agreed, agreed, and agreed.

ATA + RAA = evil.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

But then you rained on our parade. On more than one occasion, you took the media spotlight as an opportunity to grumble a bit about your chosen career path.

Heaven forbid someone dish out some truth for once.

In the process, your comments tarnished the dreams of legions of aspiring airline pilots deep in training at aviation colleges and academies who are struggling, some incurring tens of thousands of dollars in debt, to realize their dream of flying airliners.

Oh, the horrors! The kiddies have to hear some reality instead of Kit Darby's "pilot shortage" BS for once. How will their delicate psyches ever survive? anic:

With all due respect, it is important to remember that yours is simply one viewpoint. Granted, your less-than-rosy perspective is shared by many of your brethren.

Yes, the people that actually have experience. That means people other than you.

He believes that fewer people want to be airline pilots because they have heard nothing but doom and gloom for years.

Good. Weed out those that aren't truly committed, and those that remain will benefit because of the supply/demand curve shifting.

As a counter to your sentiments, read "Career Pilot: Three Wise Men" (July 2007 AOPA Flight Training). After long careers with United, Continental, and American spanning decades, captains Unger, Miller, and Rutherford said that despite the downsides and downsizing, they would do it all over again. As one of your associates confessed recently, "We were spoiled. The thought of paying a guy as much as the president of the United States to fly a Boeing 747 to Tokyo and back a few times a month just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I would be shot by my peers if they heard me say that!"

What a bunch of tripe. Just when I thought I couldn't possibly think less of AOPA......

that airline pilot income arrives in many forms--not all monetarily.

Yeah, because Countrywide will happily accept warm fuzzy feelings about sunsets for my monthly mortgage payment.

Being an airline pilot sure beats working for a living!
Sincerely yours, Wayne Phillips

Eat and die.

Jerry Glass? Jerry Glass? The guy who gutted the USAir pilots contract with the zeal and skill that would amaze an accomplished fish monger?

Jerry Glass 'airline human resources veteran..." That is like calling Frank Lorenzo an airline builder.

Phillips quotes Glass and expects anyone to not see the bias?

JEZ!!!!

I knew I remembered that name from somewhere! That explains so much about that article!

I don't get whats so wrong with the article?

Hence the problem with our profession.

All the more reason not to continue to support AOPA's Hobby Only centered nonsense.

AOPA is a cancer on professional aviation.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

In the end ALPA and AOPA work together on the really important stuff.

No, not really.

The group that 'we' both should be worried about is the ATA.

I agree with the ATA much more often than I agree with AOPA. As sad as that is, it's true. AOPA's interests are diametrically opposed to those of air line pilots.

 

[mshunter]

Without having a copy of the article it's kind of hard to provide objective commentary.

Question; what are you trying to say about bringing soldiers remains home? How could you carry them on an airliner anywhere other than in cargo?

I don't want to copy/paste it in fear of violating copywrite laws.

I know that the cargo hold is the only place to carry them,but I think it borders on disrespectful.

 

[mshunter]

I love to fly GA, but I think AOPA's recent article may just cause me to cancel my membership. I have no desire to fly for the airlines, because people like Mr. Phillips think that getting paid in sunsets will keep diapers on my kids but, and food in his belly. I make double of what a refional FO makes as a FBO flight instructor. poo poo on the regionals. $20k a year kin lick my (explative deleted).

 

[wrxpilot]

That's pretty bad, but not surprising. Between him and Karen Kahn (who is an advocate for PFT), I'm just sick of that magazine. I've written several letters to the editor to portray the side of professional aviation when it comes to issues like PFT, but to date they have refused to publish them.

Flight Training magazine has become nothing more than a glossy paged ad book for starry eyed SJS kids. We should feel sorry for people stupid enough to shell out $70k - 100k+ for flight training? How completely absurd. Rather than feel sorry for them, I think what fools they must be. If anybody is that foolish with decision making, I hope they stay out of professional aviation.

 

[derg]

What credentials does Mr. Phillips have that allow him to address this subject ?

A keyboard. Everyone's an "expert" in the internet age. I'm not saying it's right, or that they are but how many bloggers sitting in their parent's basement make the news cycle?

 

[Orange Anchor]

I knew I remembered that name from somewhere! That explains so much about that article!.

Glass is a very skilled fellow. Attended the George Meany school and knew/knows every trick. He had charmed our MEC so well our MEC exchanged letters with him and began, "Dear Jerry". We knew our ass was in the sack when we saw that.

But the profession has changed dramatically in the last decade. LONG time ago when I began it was 4-7yrs to the left seat and salaries north of $100k doing 12 days a month on a good schedule and 15-17 days if you were an idiot at bidding. Trip rigs were 1:3 overall and daily rigs were 1: 1 3/4. If you were on the clock they paid you.. not a lot of 'practice layovers' sitting in the crew room for 3.9 hrs.

Most important, you felt you were contributing and were appreciated. At my old house, it was not surprising that the President remembered you. When I got hired we had lunch with the President of the company and he THANKED us for joining his company.

Costs for getting tickets are high.. pay is low but just as important is the environment. From talking to a lot of my active buddies, once you get the door closed, it returns to a semblance of the former years but prior to the closing there are lots of hassles and it is not uncommon for a line to be 18-20 days.

It is not just the money but gone are also two other prime factors.. trust and communication. That may explain Sully's take although I won't try to speak for him.

 

[JoelT]

Glass is a very skilled fellow. Attended the George Meany school and knew/knows every trick. He had charmed our MEC so well our MEC exchanged letters with him and began, "Dear Jerry". We knew our *ss was in the sack when we saw that.

But the profession has changed dramatically in the last decade. LONG time ago when I began it was 4-7yrs to the left seat and salaries north of $100k doing 12 days a month on a good schedule and 15-17 days if you were an idiot at bidding. Trip rigs were 1:3 overall and daily rigs were 1: 1 3/4. If you were on the clock they paid you.. not a lot of 'practice layovers' sitting in the crew room for 3.9 hrs.

Most important, you felt you were contributing and were appreciated. At my old house, it was not surprising that the President remembered you. When I got hired we had lunch with the President of the company and he THANKED us for joining his company.

Costs for getting tickets are high.. pay is low but just as important is the environment. From talking to a lot of my active buddies, once you get the door closed, it returns to a semblance of the former years but prior to the closing there are lots of hassles and it is not uncommon for a line to be 18-20 days.

It is not just the money but gone are also two other prime factors.. trust and communication. That may explain Sully's take although I won't try to speak for him.

OA, you and I disagree on most things political but, when it comes to aviation and in particular, the airlines, I got to give a big :yeahthat:. Your last paragraph sums it up nicely.

 

[Orange Anchor]

OA, you and I disagree on most things political but, when it comes to aviation and in particular, the airlines, I got to give a big :yeahthat:. Your last paragraph sums it up nicely.

Finding common ground is more important. And since we are not in a power struggle, it allows for actual exchange, unlike in the halls of power.

reading a book called the Carrot Principle and it says 4 things are required for a company to be successful. Goal setting, communication, TRUST and recognition. From my experience before retirement was that there was some goal setting but there is a difference between a visionary and a leader.

A visionary tells you that he knows the way.. just trust him. Jim Jones comes to mind. A leader defines the goal, defines A suggested path and brings everyone and leads. I am a bit hard pressed to think of one today.

But the next three... communication, trust and recognition? ZILCH. Especially the latter two.

I readily admit I miss the line swine and the exchange. The diversity of interests, achievements, goals was always stimulating. As here, it was hard to find a subject where there was not someone very conversant and knowledgeable on that subject be it so esoteric as draft horses (Belgians preferred over Clydesdales) or geo-thermal systems for homes.

But the airline environment has changed and Sully has been around long enough to see those changes and many are not for the better to the average 'line swine' (said with great deference)

 

[RRPower]

I will be the first to say that I thought it would be all glorious too. I still love flying and have a blast with it. I don't feel like I actually work for a living. With that said, since I have been there for almost 2 years I have only had two kids visit the cockpit. I wish we had more but that is the reality of it. Also, I have seen many many beautiful sights in the wee hours of the morning. The problem there is, it isn't as enjoyable when you flew 8 hrs and 16hrs of duty the previous day and got 10hrs in the hotel which turned out to be 7 in the room and 5 for sleep. (if you're good)

So yes I see both sides of it. It is still a lot of fun but sometimes you just have to do it to really understand what someone is talking about...

 

[SpiceWeasel]

OA, you and I disagree on most things political but, when it comes to aviation and in particular, the airlines, I got to give a big :yeahthat:. Your last paragraph sums it up nicely.

Finding common ground is more important. And since we are not in a power struggle, it allows for actual exchange, unlike in the halls of power.

reading a book called the Carrot Principle and it says 4 things are required for a company to be successful. Goal setting, communication, TRUST and recognition. From my experience before retirement was that there was some goal setting but there is a difference between a visionary and a leader.

A visionary tells you that he knows the way.. just trust him. Jim Jones comes to mind. A leader defines the goal, defines A suggested path and brings everyone and leads. I am a bit hard pressed to think of one today.

But the next three... communication, trust and recognition? ZILCH. Especially the latter two.

I readily admit I miss the line swine and the exchange. The diversity of interests, achievements, goals was always stimulating. As here, it was hard to find a subject where there was not someone very conversant and knowledgeable on that subject be it so esoteric as draft horses (Belgians preferred over Clydesdales) or geo-thermal systems for homes.

But the airline environment has changed and Sully has been around long enough to see those changes and many are not for the better to the average 'line swine' (said with great deference)

I read this article, and the replies, and even though, like y'all said, we don't always agree on everything, it was nice to find the common ground that we share here.

Until you make money - just enough to pay your bills and maybe have a little fun, whether you're the author of this article (who probably makes bank), or your some kid still living at home (no offense meant, honestly), you simply won't understand why "non-monetary" forms of compensation are just empty words.

What makes me happy is not money itself, it is the lack of stress that comes with having enough of it where you don't have to have a budget "allowing" yourself $100/month for "enjoyment".

Sure, being at work and seeing the sunset will de-stress me for about five minutes, but crew scheduling can snap me back into the real world as fast as driving home and seeing several days worth of bills piled up in the mail box.

 

[MFT1Air]

From an aviation viewpoint, I'm believing experience speaks volumes. (. . .as it does for probably every other endeavor.)

Before captains became captains making the money they make, I'm kinda curious what money they made way back when.

Not making any assumptions, is it probably true many aviatiors on this forum have been flying professionally less than 15 to 20 years? Are many less than 40 years old still trying to support families and BUILD aviation careers as opposed to nearing the end? If so, how can anyone criticize another having "successfully" completed an aviation career? Moreover, I'd ask those "veterans" how much they were making twenty years ago before academies and high student debt. I'd ask a veteran how things were back when they were in the same position as many this thread are in their careers.

I'm confused about the comparisons made by professionals new to Part 121 and 135 flying. New to this era are the regional jets, so what were less than 1000TT pilots doing "back in the day?" How much money were they making? How much were regional captains making 10-15 years ago before they transitioned to right seats of legacy airlines? If you weren't flying either corporate or Part 121, were salaries "all that stellar" for Part 135 flying or other flying endeavors? Were you flying with an established aviation entity or were you CFIng?

 

[pilot4500]

It would be so nice if I could pay all of my bills with sunsets and sunrises.