Flight through class D airpace with VFR advisories

XcalibeR said:
My boss likes to tell a story of a pilot who was shooting practice VFR approaches into our local class D, while on with KC approach. Apparently, he got all the way to a 1 or 2 mile final before they switched him over, and tower was irate. Tower had a big mess on his hands because this guy came in without any warning.
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Well, that's the tower's problem, not yours. Approach control is responsible for clearing you for approaches. Period. You shouldn't be talking to the tower until you get a hand off to do so. They can/should/must clear you into any Charlie or Delta they are working. The approach controller needs to coordinate that with the tower, not you. Especially for instrument traffic in a Delta - the tower controller provides only runway separation there - Approach separates everything else (instrument anyways).

Approach is the appropriate ATC facility to provide clearance through a Bravo, Charlie, and most Delta airspaces. If they want you to talk to tower, they'll hand you off. But as far as legalities go, an approach controller is the appropriate controlling authority. A defined in the FARs. So long as you are talking to them, you are OK in any Charlie or Delta airspace in their sector. Of course, it can be hard to tell what airports they cover if you aren't looking at the IAPs. Short answer is don't worry about it.

Now, you can't be talking to Miami Approach and the bust through the KPVD Charlie for instance, but that isn't going to happen in real life, is it?

A Center controller is not generally the "controlling authority" for Bravo/Charlie/Delta" airspaces. In the real world, Center will tell you "radar service terminated, try XZY approach" -- or give you a handoff if they can. Talking to Center does not clear you into the Bravo/Charlie/Deltas, simply because it isn't their airspace. This is what seems to trip people up.

In those rare cases where a Center controller is giving you VFR flight following to a towered airport where there is no approach controller (there are a few), just tell them you have the field in sight 5+ miles out. If not, well, Center probably has an LOA to clear you in there anyway. So just ask :)
 
godspeed said:
i had an experience that approach cleared me for an ILS but never advised me to contact the tower thereafter.
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Heck, I've had experiences when I've landed at a Class D or Class C primary without ever being switched from Approach (including for the taxi to the ramp).

I think that's part of the the point behind the info in the ATC Handbook. Between LOIs among TRACONs and Towers, airports where approach/departure functions are shared with Tower controllers, and the coordination of ATC functions in general, pilots don't necessarily have access to information on what is really the ATC facility with jurisdiction.


One of the things I've done with pilots in the Denver area (t least in the past; I haven't done it recently)
http://skyvector.com/?ll=39.908837117951364,-105.11716306967287&chart=18&zoom=3
to illustrate the point is have them call Metro Tower (while not speaking with Approach) for permission to transit through the Class D at 7500 just so they can be told by Tower to contact Denver Approach.
 
You need to ask for a frequency change, or otherwise communicate with the class D in question before you can transition. That's a common common thing going into and out of PAMR. You're on with approach, and they forget about you, but you need to switch to tower, so what do you do, circle at the shore line until they get to you, then go in. I know of a couple of violations handed out for that sort of thing.
 
ppragman said:
You need to ask for a frequency change, or otherwise communicate with the class D in question before you can transition.
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If the Delta airspace has an approach controller, what's wrong with talking to him? That's why he is there.


FAR 91.129
(1) Arrival or through flight. Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that airspace.
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It says ATC facility, not tower. This is consistent with the AIM 3-2-5.
 
godspeed said:
Approach never say the magic words "you're cleared into bravo", so are you going to bust the airspace if you fly at 2500 ft?
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Yes. Entering a Bravo always requires a clearance. A vector does not equal a clearance.

Other airspaces are fine though. Landing at KTPA here, approach routinely vectors you through 3 different Delta airspaces. The definitely do not expect you to be contacting those towers.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
If the Delta airspace has an approach controller, what's wrong with talking to him? That's why he is there.




It says ATC facility, not tower. This is consistent with the AIM 3-2-5.
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He doesn't, its a satellite airport for the Class Charlie. In fact, other than Fairbanks TRSA, I can't even really think of a class Delta field with an approach control.
 
ppragman said:
He doesn't, its a satellite airport for the Class Charlie. In fact, other than Fairbanks TRSA, I can't even really think of a class Delta field with an approach control.
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Typically Approach covers all of the airports in the area. TPA Approach covers KLAL, KSPG, KPIE, KMCF (all Deltas), KSRQ (Charlie) and KTPA (Bravo) here.

KNQX (Boca Chica) is a Delta here with their own approach controller. Actually, Navy Approach there serves two Deltas (KEYW too). KHYA is another Delta with its own approach controller.

Here's another example, if I'm flying a practice GPS 9 for KPTA, that has me going through KPIE's Delta. I'm I supposed to contact the tower for an additional clearance to transit their airspace? I think that would be silly.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
Typically Approach covers all of the airports in the area. TPA Approach covers KLAL, KSPG, KPIE, KMCF (all Deltas), KSRQ (Charlie) and KTPA (Bravo) here.

KNQX (Boca Chica) is a Delta here with their own approach controller. Actually, Navy Approach there serves two Deltas (KEYW too). KHYA is another Delta with its own approach controller.

Here's another example, if I'm flying a practice GPS 9 for KPTA, that has me going through KPIE's Delta. I'm I supposed to contact the tower for an additional clearance to transit their airspace? I think that would be silly.
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Dunno, but I'd be careful, I'd expect that when you're flying an approach practice or otherwise you'd be covered, I never bothered with it then, but when flying VFR into and out of their airspace I'd wait to enter until I had 2-way-radio communications.
 
ppragman said:
In fact, other than Fairbanks TRSA, I can't even really think of a class Delta field with an approach control.
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Gee, I can think of 2 a pretty short distance from my home base: KCYS and KASE. Until about a year ago, you could add KPUB which came under Denver Approach jurisdiction about a year ago. None of those are TRSA - just plain vanilla Class Ds with dedicated approach control.

Actually, one might still consider KPUB and also KGJT as qualifying as Class D with Approach Control considering that they are pretty remote from the "normal" Denver TRACON geographic area and you pass through other jurisdictions (Colorado Springs Approach in the case of KPUB and Denver Center before KGJT) and really can't be considered KDEN satellites.

None of those are even TRSAs. Even if you don't want to count KPUB and KGJT, if I can think of those just off the top of my head that are close, there must be many more.
 
tgrayson said:
ATC really doesn't want you to do this. It's their job to negotiate the traversal of these airspaces:

ATC Handbook

2-1-16. SURFACE AREAS
[...]
b. Coordinate with the appropriate control tower for transit authorization when you are providing radar traffic advisory service to an aircraft that will enter another facility's airspace.

NOTE-
The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through each area when in contact with a radar facility.
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San Angelo approach control in Texas was NON RADAR just a few years ago. I wonder if that note would still apply? Seems not. Also wonder if they went radar yet. It was a pain in the a%@ to fly through there.
 
flyman128 said:
If you are on with approach getting VFR flight following does that automatically clear you through any class D airspace. My experience has always been that you are, but I cant find anything in the regs. I know that it says you must contact the controlling ATC facility. Does approach count as that?
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It would seem rather silly to establish radio communications with class D, while online with approach. Remember, ATC is there to help with the work load =)
 
So a friend of mine was out flying today and asked Bradley approach this question and they said that they are responsible for informing the tower that you are transitioning the class c/d airspace. If they do not have time to do this they will just tell you to contact the tower yourself and advise them. This was directly from the controller!!!
 
Throwing another tangent in here, is this something that can change in LOA's between control areas?

Maybe we should move this thread to the ATC forum.
 
XcalibeR said:
Throwing another tangent in here, is this something that can change in LOA's between control areas?
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It can. That's probably a reason for the rule. Since LOIs aren't published, we, as pilots are not necessarily expected to know which is the appropriate facility when it comes to TRACON and Class D Towers. I think I gave the example earlier of an airport in the Denver area where, if you call the Tower for transit through the D, they'll just tell you to call Approach.
 
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