Flight through class D airpace with VFR advisories

[flyman128]

If you are on with approach getting VFR flight following does that automatically clear you through any class D airspace. My experience has always been that you are, but I cant find anything in the regs. I know that it says you must contact the controlling ATC facility. Does approach count as that?

 

[primate]

You need to assume not. In the case that they assign you altitude and heading, maybe.

But best to just assume that you are going to be held responsible for penetrating controlled airspace along your route of flight.

There was a recent thread, I'll try to find it, with a LOI about this, I believe.

 

[tgrayson]

If you are on with approach getting VFR flight following does that automatically clear you through any class D airspace. My experience has always been that you are, but I cant find anything in the regs. I know that it says you must contact the controlling ATC facility. Does approach count as that?

The ATC Handbook specifies that ATC is responsible for negotiating your clearance through other airspaces. Unfortunately, another branch of the FAA offers you different guidance:


Mike Granby
605 Holly Court
York, Pennsylvania 17406
Dear Mr. Granby:

In a letter dated February 10, 2006, you asked us about the meaning and application of Title 14, Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR) section 91.130(c)(1) which addresses arrival or through flight in Class C airspace. 14 CFR § 91.130(c)(1) states in relevant part:

Each person operating an aircraft in Class C airspace must meet the following two-way radio communications requirements: Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the [emphasis supplied] ATC (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that airspace.
​

In your letter, you inquired whether use of the definite article “the”, which is italicized above, indicates a requirement to contact the air traffic control (ATC) facility charged with managing the specific Class C airspace or whether contact with any ATC facility would suffice. The answer is that the regulation requires that the operator contact the specific ATC facility responsible for the Class C airspace in question. In the case of Class C airspace, that facility is the Terminal Radar Approach Control (TRACON).

Also in your letter you posited a situation in which a pilot operating under visual flight rules (VFR) is communicating with an Air Route Traffic Control Center (ARTCC or Center) while approaching the boundary of Class C airspace. In your hypothetical, you inquired whether a pilot would be in violation of section 91.130(c)(1) if he enters the Class C airspace while in two-way communication with the Center and not the TRACON. You further inquired if the Center’s “failure to hand him off” would relieve the pilot of the responsibility to establish two-way communication with the TRACON prior to entering their Class C airspace.

The operator of the aircraft would be in violation of section 91.130(c)(1) in the hypothetical that you present. Under section 91.3, the pilot in command is directly responsible for and is the final authority as to the operation of the aircraft. The receipt of traffic advisories from a Center or any other ATC facility does not relieve the pilot of the responsibilities of section 91.3.

Advisory services such as flight following are furnished to VFR traffic as a courtesy when workloads permit. By providing this courtesy, the Center does not obligate itself to advise pilots operating under VFR of their geographic position nor of their obligations under section 91.130(c)(1) or any other sections of 14 CFR. However, the FAA does recognize that there could be circumstances that mitigate the violation depending on the actual contents of the two-way communication between the pilot and the Center.

If you have any further questions please contact Mr. Naveen Rao of my staff at (202) 267-3073. Thank you for your inquiry.

Sincerely,
Rebecca MacPherson
Assistant Chief Counsel, Regulations

 

[flyman128]

So if was on with Boston approach rather than Boston center then I would be able to go through the class D airspace?

 

[tgrayson]

So if was on with Boston approach rather than Boston center then I would be able to go through the class D airspace?

I would interpret the letter as "no" in that regard. The class D tower is responsible for its own airspace, just as the Class C is responsible for its own airspace.

That said, in practice, I don't think it's practical to accept flight following and insist on communicating directly with all the airspace you traverse. If you end up busting airspace while accepting radar services, the controller is the one who's going to get in trouble.

The letter is at odds with reality, IMO.

 

[primate]

I don't think you want to make that assumption. There was a recent writeup somewhere about a Bravo bust, where the pilot was VFR on flight following. He had been assigned a heading, and ended up with a violation.

The interpretation by the FAA was that had he been given a heading and and altitude to fly, he would have been under positive control or some such something, and it would have been controller error.

Otherwise, he was on "own navigation", and responsible for the airspace bust.

Still looking for this, think it was on avweb.

 

[tgrayson]

The interpretation by the FAA was that had he been given a heading and and altitude to fly, he would have been under positive control or some such something, and it would have been controller error. Otherwise, he was on "own navigation", and responsible for the airspace bust. Still looking for this, think it was on avweb.

Actually, I posted the NTSB case on this a few months back in the ATC section. Different scenario. Class B requires a specific clearance, C and D do not.

 

[primate]

Actually, I posted the NTSB case on this a few months back in the ATC section. Different scenario. Class B requires a specific clearance, C and D do not.

Yes you did !


Here's the thread.

Good one.

 

[primate]

Actually, I posted the NTSB case on this a few months back in the ATC section. Different scenario. Class B requires a specific clearance, C and D do not.

Delta and Charlie still require two-way radio communication. Flight following with a center controller -- does that constitute radio contact with the controlling authority (restating OP's Q) ? Would it be any different if you were talking to approach instead ?

In my opinion, no. You need to observe the delta airspace and climb above his airspace or go around, or talk to the controller responsible for that airspace.

A practical thing to do might be to request a freq. change, as a way of determining if coordination was done for you.

We have plenty of opportunity for this sort of conflict around here (ATL north), and I wouldn't for instance enter KPDK airspace without requesting a transition from the tower there.

Face it though, if you are on flight following, chances are you are XC, and you are probably not flying 2500 AGL or lower, so you won't typically run across this I wouldn't think.

 

[tgrayson]

In my opinion, no. You need to observe the delta airspace and climb above his airspace or go around, or talk to the controller responsible for that airspace. A practical thing to do might be to request a freq. change, as a way of determining if coordination was done for you.

ATC really doesn't want you to do this. It's their job to negotiate the traversal of these airspaces:

ATC Handbook

2-1-16. SURFACE AREAS
[...]
b. Coordinate with the appropriate control tower for transit authorization when you are providing radar traffic advisory service to an aircraft that will enter another facility's airspace.

NOTE-
The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through each area when in contact with a radar facility.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

The ATC Handbook specifies that ATC is responsible for negotiating your clearance through other airspaces. Unfortunately, another branch of the FAA offers you different guidance:

I don't think there's a conflict between the two. The ATC Handbook does not talk about negotiating clearances through all airspaces – it talks about coordination with respect to transit through surface areas:

==============================
2-1-16. SURFACE AREAS
***
b. Coordinate with the appropriate control tower for transit authorization when you are providing radar traffic advisory service to an aircraft that will enter another facility's airspace.

NOTE-
The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through each area when in contact with a radar facility.
==============================

The Legal opinion talks about entering Class C airspace, which is not a "surface area" until the inner circle.

 

[primate]

That is interesting information, probably not typically known by most pilots, since it is ATC procedure.

However, I don't get a warm fuzzy to the extent that I would put my ticket on the line and trust the center controller to coordinate for me. At least I would note it or ask.

I would be less likely to question the TRACON, at least around here.

Since it is a low priority service provided to VFR traffic, you may fly a heading into airspace without getting a new vector, simply because the controller was busy with IFR traffic (or shift change, etc.).

He didn't tell you to turn, you didn't ask, and the result is an airspace bust.

In this case, one would have no defense for the airspace violation, since the PIC is responsible for having "all information available ...", which includes airspace boundaries.

 

[tgrayson]

The Legal opinion talks about entering Class C airspace, which is not a "surface area" until the inner circle.

True, but the logic they used applies equally well to the Class D, since the tower is the ATC facility in charge of the Class D. I see nothing that narrows the scope the class C only.

 

[godspeed]

when i was working on my private, my instructor told me that when on flight following, the controller knew where we were and would coordinate with the controlling agency (tower) when being vectored through C/D airspace.

flight following is only a courtesy service, i believe approach is not obligated to look out airspace for VFR traffic. however, it's unusual to vector you through controlled airspace without clearance. i would query approach and get an acknowledgment.

i got a different scenario:
you're on VFR and requesting flight following to point A. there is a class bravo airspace starts at 2000 ft. after you contact approach they give you the following instruction which will bring you right into bravo, "skyhawk 6CM, radar contact, fly heading 180, maintain at or below 2500"

Approach never say the magic words "you're cleared into bravo", so are you going to bust the airspace if you fly at 2500 ft?

 

[tgrayson]

Approach never say the magic words "you're cleared into bravo", so are you going to bust the airspace if you fly at 2500 ft?

Potentially, yes, since he gave you an "at or below". If he had given you a hard altitude, you'd probably have been protected.

 

[godspeed]

good catch!

 

[Douglas]

If you are on with approach getting VFR flight following does that automatically clear you through any class D airspace. My experience has always been that you are, but I cant find anything in the regs. I know that it says you must contact the controlling ATC facility. Does approach count as that?

I had an experience that relates to this a couple of months ago flying around and under the shelf of MSP.

The NW side of MSP has two Deltas, which we had to transit to do a flight seeing tour.

MSP TRACON told us to remain outside of Bravo, while we wrapped around their airspace, East to west.

I was getting anxious the closer we got to the Delta.
Us: Approach, are we cleared into Anoka and Crystal Delta airspace?
TRACON: Standby, let me coordinate with them.
---
TRACON: Cleared into the Delta Airspace, remain outside of Bravo.

We after a few circles in Delta airspace, we head out never talking to the towers.

----

I don't know for sure what is best, but this worked great. We stayed with approach the whole time.
I'd say the only wrong answer would be if you didn't query your controller or if it you didn't request a freq change to the controlling agency's frequency.

 

[Xcaliber]

I just wanted to throw my thoughts into this...

To the OP: Always protect yourself. If you are nearing another controllers airspace (D or C), and you don't know if you're on the right frequency, ask. A lot of times, approach will coordinate for you, but for VFR aircraft, there are many times when they will not. For example:

My boss likes to tell a story of a pilot who was shooting practice VFR approaches into our local class D, while on with KC approach. Apparently, he got all the way to a 1 or 2 mile final before they switched him over, and tower was irate. Tower had a big mess on his hands because this guy came in without any warning.

In San Diego, I had been on with approach for a few hours, and we were heading back to Montgomery Field. Approach gave us a bravo clearance to fly over Miramar at 2500, then continue our descent down to TPA. As we started down, I instructed my copilot to call up tower, but he didn't want to leave approach freq until they told us to. Just after that discussion, they finally did, and when our tailnumber graced the tower frequency airwaves, it was right as we crossed from B to D and was followed by several quick traffic alerts. Approach had just put us going directly into the upwind. Have a look that sectional or TAC and you should see right away why that happened. Tower told us that approach never tells them when someone is inbound VFR, and that next time, we should try to give them a call further out.

Now, with that story, as PIC, it was my fault for letting approach do that to us, and for not letting my copilot know that I expect him to be johnny-on-the-spot with the radios in high traffic volume areas. But, all this brings up a point: Know where you are in relation to airspace. Keep that SA. Far too many VFR pilots (and IFR pilots, too) assume that once you're talking to ATC, they'll do everything for you.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

True, but the logic they used applies equally well to the Class D, since the tower is the ATC facility in charge of the Class D. I see nothing that narrows the scope the class C only.

...other than the specific wording of an FAA Order to the contrary.

Obviously it's the pilot's decision, but I'm personally very comfortable with the "risk" of being wrong and don't read the Legal opinion as being in conflict.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

My boss likes to tell a story of a pilot who was shooting practice VFR approaches into our local class D, while on with KC approach. Apparently, he got all the way to a 1 or 2 mile final before they switched him over, and tower was irate. Tower had a big mess on his hands because this guy came in without any warning.

I have had that happen under IFR before. The tower wasn't tied into the ATC system and I guess ATC couldn't reach the tower before I got there. The tower tried to chew me out, but I was IFR, what does he want me to do?