notawannabee
New Member
It seems that in my area (ATL), flight schools prefer not to hire ATP graduates. Has anyone else witnessed this in other locations as well ?
finding CFI job after ATP
- Thread starter notawannabee
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notawannabee
New Member
I probably should have put this in ATP thread. If a moderator thinks it would be better there, please....send it on over
notawannabee
New Member
I could be misinformed. It could even be an inferiority complex the smaller FBO has towards ATPs excellent program and pricing. Who knows, but I have heard this. I suppose most schools would like you to both train and instruct at their school.
Captain_Bob
Well-Known Member
No doubt you'll find flight schools out there that won't hire anyone from a large training academy or flight school. There are lot's of old time thought processes out there that think there is only one way to train, and don't believe that an individual can overcome any perceived faults of a flight school.
It's not sacrilege to state that, or ask the question, as Don would have you believe. He's just one of the one's of a different opinion.
There are lot's of people on here who went to ATP who got hired at the flight school of their choice.
In a large part... it's basic economics for an FBO not to hire anyone from another flight school. Skymates/ATP/AriBen/FSI/DCA etc. are all perfect examples... Who is their first choice for an instructor? One who has completed their program. Do you think it's any different at an FBO? Wouldn't the FBO be better off hiring someone who trained there as an Instructor? A person who paid that FBO for their training, knows their equipment, policies, rules, regs, etc... Of course.
That said... I have also seen FBO's say they won't hire ATP grads because they didn't think they had the SE proficiency since ATP is primarily Multi. I can't deny that. But I had a real good friend get hired at an FBO in Austin who originally thought that way... but he proved them wrong through two interviews, the last one being a panel interview with their chief pilot.
I personally know several guys that I trained with and were students there when I was an instructor who already had CFI jobs lined up at their hometown FBO because they were in a "need" situation for CFI's and they told these guys to go get their ratings and come back to a job.
Don, how is it that you think someone will be branded a "mis-informed malcontent" when they say something bad about this flight school, when all most guys usually attempt to do is also explain a different point of view?
Do some flight schools not hire ATP grads... yes. Do some flight schools not hire anyone else but students who trained at their flight schools or flight schools "similar" to theirs... yes. Do some flight schools not like the lack of SE time that students get at ATP... yes. Is it possible for an ATP student to be smart and capable enough to still get a job at a location like that... yes. Are some folks just adamantly opposed to ATP or other larger flight school CFI candidates... yes.
It's a reality... you just have to do your research. If you want to go to a large flight school and work for an FBO who "doesn't like" large flight school guys... then you need to have a game plan in place...
Here's one more fact of economics... if Joe's FBO has too many students and not enough instructors, and JohnCFI comes up to their door, squared away, with a resume in hand and all his ratings... Do you think that Joe's FBO will just say... "Nope... Sorry... We don't like your kind... we'll just continue to lose money until somebody we do like comes along."? What do you think?
When there's a surplus... we can all be choosey. When there's a deficit...
Bob
It's not sacrilege to state that, or ask the question, as Don would have you believe. He's just one of the one's of a different opinion.
There are lot's of people on here who went to ATP who got hired at the flight school of their choice.
In a large part... it's basic economics for an FBO not to hire anyone from another flight school. Skymates/ATP/AriBen/FSI/DCA etc. are all perfect examples... Who is their first choice for an instructor? One who has completed their program. Do you think it's any different at an FBO? Wouldn't the FBO be better off hiring someone who trained there as an Instructor? A person who paid that FBO for their training, knows their equipment, policies, rules, regs, etc... Of course.
That said... I have also seen FBO's say they won't hire ATP grads because they didn't think they had the SE proficiency since ATP is primarily Multi. I can't deny that. But I had a real good friend get hired at an FBO in Austin who originally thought that way... but he proved them wrong through two interviews, the last one being a panel interview with their chief pilot.
I personally know several guys that I trained with and were students there when I was an instructor who already had CFI jobs lined up at their hometown FBO because they were in a "need" situation for CFI's and they told these guys to go get their ratings and come back to a job.
Don, how is it that you think someone will be branded a "mis-informed malcontent" when they say something bad about this flight school, when all most guys usually attempt to do is also explain a different point of view?
Do some flight schools not hire ATP grads... yes. Do some flight schools not hire anyone else but students who trained at their flight schools or flight schools "similar" to theirs... yes. Do some flight schools not like the lack of SE time that students get at ATP... yes. Is it possible for an ATP student to be smart and capable enough to still get a job at a location like that... yes. Are some folks just adamantly opposed to ATP or other larger flight school CFI candidates... yes.
It's a reality... you just have to do your research. If you want to go to a large flight school and work for an FBO who "doesn't like" large flight school guys... then you need to have a game plan in place...
Here's one more fact of economics... if Joe's FBO has too many students and not enough instructors, and JohnCFI comes up to their door, squared away, with a resume in hand and all his ratings... Do you think that Joe's FBO will just say... "Nope... Sorry... We don't like your kind... we'll just continue to lose money until somebody we do like comes along."? What do you think?
When there's a surplus... we can all be choosey. When there's a deficit...
Bob
MusketeerMan
Well-Known Member
Isn't there room for the school to "not have complete faith" about a new CFI completing all of their instructor ratings in 2 weeks?
notawannabee
New Member
CaptainBob,
Well put... Just to make sure I put this out there...I am not bashing ATP at all.... I cannot develop an opinion on ATP because I have never trained or even visited ATP.
.
Well put... Just to make sure I put this out there...I am not bashing ATP at all.... I cannot develop an opinion on ATP because I have never trained or even visited ATP.
.
Trip7
Well-Known Member
A student doing ATPs CFI program must be fully prepared knowledge-wise for the checkride before they BEGIN the program or they will never make it. Yes, it is nearly impossible to complete your instructor ratings starting from scratch day one of a 2-week CFI program. Hope I answered any doubts you had
Captain_Bob
Well-Known Member
Absolutely Muskateer!
However, let's be real here. Neither ATP nor any other flight school that does advanced/accelerated CFI courses just takes Joe Pilot off the street and gives them their CFI's in two weeks. That is one of the biggest mis-conceptions. There is significant prework, prestudy, and recency requisites prior to day one.
An immersion program is not for everyone... remember, some flight schools have more faith in guys/gals that took up to a year to get their CFI. With things like life, job, family, information disuse, etc... getting in the way.
Either way... they both will have had to pass a considerable checkride with an FAA Examiner or DE to get their "license to learn.".
Bob
Van_Hoolio
Well-Known Member
Being trained at ATP actually helped me get my flight instructor job. Three of the other instructors I work/worked with were ATP trained, and I think that made me a known quantity. And when we finally got a twin on the line, guess which instructors were the ones checked out to instruct in it? That's right, the ones who trained at ATP and had all the multi time! "Get your MEI and instruct" is a lot easier spoken than practiced.
Mike
Mike
Airdale
Well-Known Member
I got offered 3 CFI jobs out of ATP. Ended up turning them down and working at ATP anyway. Any flight school or FBO that turns away a perfectly qualified ATP graduate just because they are from ATP, isn't worth working for anyway. They're just jealous that while they putt around in 152's all day, we're flying twins.
I know a guy that instructs in 172's, makes more money then me. But yet he tells me all the time he wishes he went to ATP and got a job here. Because while he's still flying 172's 6 months from now to build his total time over 1,000hrs, and has to buy time in a twin to meet the multi requirements, I'll be on my way to the next level before him. At times I envy his job because he trains Private pilots and makes decent money....but then I hop in the Seminole and feel much better.
Not to mention we train IFR guys all the time, so my IFR skills have greatly improved. Teaching Private pilots all the time doesn't do much for solid IFR skills and procedures.
This debate over the quality of training at ATP is getting old. I think their performance speaks for itself. I scored no less then 88% on any written, didn't fail a checkride and now as a CFI I have 15 sign-off's with 14 first time passes sent with over 7 DPE's. Go to ATP, don't go to ATP, I don't think you'll hurt anyone's feelings. Ratings are ratings. Get them in your pocket and strive to be the best pilot you possibly can. You can be successful training at any school or FBO. You will only be as good as you want to be. I tell this to my students all the time. I constantly raise the bar and get them to perform above their level. My philosophy is, if you're going to be a Professional Pilot, then be a Professional Pilot. Don't sell yourself short. Demand the training you want, and most flight schools will give it to you. ATP provides a great atmosphere for training Professional Pilots, its just up to the students to get the most out of it.
I know a guy that instructs in 172's, makes more money then me. But yet he tells me all the time he wishes he went to ATP and got a job here. Because while he's still flying 172's 6 months from now to build his total time over 1,000hrs, and has to buy time in a twin to meet the multi requirements, I'll be on my way to the next level before him. At times I envy his job because he trains Private pilots and makes decent money....but then I hop in the Seminole and feel much better.
Not to mention we train IFR guys all the time, so my IFR skills have greatly improved. Teaching Private pilots all the time doesn't do much for solid IFR skills and procedures. This debate over the quality of training at ATP is getting old. I think their performance speaks for itself. I scored no less then 88% on any written, didn't fail a checkride and now as a CFI I have 15 sign-off's with 14 first time passes sent with over 7 DPE's. Go to ATP, don't go to ATP, I don't think you'll hurt anyone's feelings. Ratings are ratings. Get them in your pocket and strive to be the best pilot you possibly can. You can be successful training at any school or FBO. You will only be as good as you want to be. I tell this to my students all the time. I constantly raise the bar and get them to perform above their level. My philosophy is, if you're going to be a Professional Pilot, then be a Professional Pilot. Don't sell yourself short. Demand the training you want, and most flight schools will give it to you. ATP provides a great atmosphere for training Professional Pilots, its just up to the students to get the most out of it.
musicmixer
New Member
I had a short stint at a somewhat small school flying cherokee's after ATP. JK called me after 3 week of instructing there and I was more than happy to accept. Besides the Multi time, I was very pleased go to ATP and fly aircraft that I felt safe in. ATP takes care of their aircaraft.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
"Any flight school or FBO that turns away a perfectly qualified ATP graduate just because they are from ATP, isn't worth working for anyway. They're just jealous that while they putt around in 152's all day, we're flying twins"
www.galvinflying.com
Yeah, I'm sure their jealous....
Perhaps they just aren't interested in flying twins for $10/hr.
The rest of your post I agree with.
www.galvinflying.com
Yeah, I'm sure their jealous....
Perhaps they just aren't interested in flying twins for $10/hr.
The rest of your post I agree with.
Captain_Bob
Well-Known Member
Yeah... a bit overboard with the "jealousy" remark.
People are people... Flight schools are flight schools... Opinions are opinions...
Bob
People are people... Flight schools are flight schools... Opinions are opinions...
Bob
Airdale
Well-Known Member
Yeah okay, maybe jealous isn't the right word. But what else explains the bitterness towards ATP? We have a college on the field here and they are not very fond of ATP. We train pilots just like everybody else, we just do it in multi engine airplanes and in short time frames.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
"But what else explains the bitterness towards ATP"
Bitterness? Do you have any general aviation background outside ATP? Some people think guys going from zero experience to CFI's in 90 days, then training newbies who go from zero experience to CFI in 90 days, and on and on, is less than ideal and doesn't make for a well rounded CFI. Some people don't think two guys logging multi-PIC at the same time is a good idea.
Bob is right, that feeling is simply an opinion, nothing more. It's an opinion I share.
Bitterness? Do you have any general aviation background outside ATP? Some people think guys going from zero experience to CFI's in 90 days, then training newbies who go from zero experience to CFI in 90 days, and on and on, is less than ideal and doesn't make for a well rounded CFI. Some people don't think two guys logging multi-PIC at the same time is a good idea.
Bob is right, that feeling is simply an opinion, nothing more. It's an opinion I share.
killbilly
Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
Looks like a nice place. I read the training brochure...kinda spendy, IMHO, but definitely a nice fleet. What it brought to mind was the discussion over learning in glass-cockpit vs. steam gauges we had a month or so ago....
Airdale
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I putted around in 172's for a bit. Even worked at a local FBO for a short stint. What type of experience is required? When you pass a CFI checkride, you have demonstrated the required knowledge and the ability to pass that on as an instructor. I had no experience instructing, but you have to start somewhere. I frequently train people with tripple the flight hours I have. I have learned more training various students in a complex environment then I ever would have carving holes in the sky teaching private pilots. I shoot approaches weekly, consistently teach multi engine aerodynamics, IFR procedures, rules and regulations. I shut down engines in the sky sometimes 3 times in one day. I only have one checkride bust as a CFI. I probably have more experience in 200hrs dual given then some CFI's with twice that amount teaching private pilots. I go from teaching an 85hr Private pilot how to fly a twin on one engine and then hop in the plane with a DC-8 pilot and teach him how to hand fly a stable approach. I teach Private pilots with fresh multi engine privelages how to fly solid approaches, single engine with a partial panel in 27 days. Would that count for experience?
There are two kinds of CFI's : Those that are instructors and those that hold a CFI ticket. You get both at any school. I'd really like to know what kind of experience a CFI needs before they should instruct? Would it be best to buy my flight time and fly around for fun? Or maybe I should go back and teach Private Pilots in Cessna's. That will surely give me the experience I need to train more advanced students right?
