Filing an IFR flight plan with a non-GPS jet
- Thread starter JaceTheAce
- Start date
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
This will not stand, man.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
You actually don't need to be in the service volumes when you're on an airway too. Just to be clear.
Flagship_dxer
Penske Material
I don't know why your flight followers keep filing a non GPS aircraft on RNAV routes. I dispatch for a 121 major and have worked at 121 regionals and it is standard industry practice to file aircraft that are non GPS equipped or GPS placarded on non-RNAV routes. Typically if the airline doesn't already have a non-RNAV route built for the city pairs it is not difficult to plan a non-RNAV route. Worse case you need to call ATC and they will tell you what non-RNAV route they want.
Sometimes ATC will want carriers to file non-RNAV routes which may be beyond the VOR service volumes or there may be inop NAVAIDs. In said cases, ATC says they will provide vectors for the aircraft through areas where there are gaps in coverage.
Supplemental carriers and 91 carriers don't require licensed dispatchers unless mandated by their Ops Specs. This could be part of the issue you are facing. They might not even know what a non-RNAV route is.
Sometimes ATC will want carriers to file non-RNAV routes which may be beyond the VOR service volumes or there may be inop NAVAIDs. In said cases, ATC says they will provide vectors for the aircraft through areas where there are gaps in coverage.
Supplemental carriers and 91 carriers don't require licensed dispatchers unless mandated by their Ops Specs. This could be part of the issue you are facing. They might not even know what a non-RNAV route is.
JaceTheAce
Well-Known Member
No plotter. We no longer have paper charts. But that shouldn't matter anyway. We can file a radial outbound and DME, sure, but our Flight Followers for some reason can't do it easily when filing a flight plan in the computer system.
I often share my routings on common routes with them to get the ball rolling quicker. They do appreciate it.
Well of course, as I said above that's what we do. But if there's no airway between the VORs they must fall within VOR service volumes. 130nm is the limit when at cruise at FL350 if you're going direct from the first VOR to the next.
You are correct. I wasn't questioning this.
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
Meh. A Garmin x96 is more reliable and accurate than the pos vor equipment in a 40 year old jet.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
Yeah, I don't see what the FAA's reluctance to allowing handheld GPS units to be certified for enroute nav is...
Corporate Pilot
Well-Known Member
Are you saying you will only fly between VOR's that are only 130nm apart? Service volume from VOR A is 130nm + Service Volume from VOR B is 130nm = 260nm.
2. Operation off established routes from 18,000 feet MSL to FL 450—use NAVAIDs not more than 260 NM apart. These aids are depicted on en route high altitude charts.
flyboy6585
Well-Known Member
Dude, you do not need a fix between two High VORs. Even if they are 260nm apart, you just plot a line out (and figure the out bound radial) and plot the line into the next (calculating the radial inbound ... probably not exactly 180 degrees off due to declination differences in the VORs) and fly the radials. Nothing says that you have to file those radials, just the two VORs. Additionally, take advantage of Jet Routes, which often will extend the leg well beyond the service volume will allow. File it even if it is slightly less than a direct route, you can always ask for vectors to XYZAB intersection or direct once airborne to cut corners and speed up the route.
Not all that complex. If you don't have paper charts nor a plotter you can utilize skyvector or some other flight planning program and get the radials/distances calculated for you...even DUAT(S) will do it for you and isn't particularly cumbersome.
In short, be an athlete and make it happen. And don't accept an illegal flight plan, if nothing else when you call clearance say something to the effect of "we are going to be /A today...request a reroute if able"
Not all that complex. If you don't have paper charts nor a plotter you can utilize skyvector or some other flight planning program and get the radials/distances calculated for you...even DUAT(S) will do it for you and isn't particularly cumbersome.
In short, be an athlete and make it happen. And don't accept an illegal flight plan, if nothing else when you call clearance say something to the effect of "we are going to be /A today...request a reroute if able"
JaceTheAce
Well-Known Member
Yes, I know that. I'm saying that since we have no way of accurately plotting out a radial with the Jeppesen FD app our Flight Followers/Dispatchers must agree on a radial outbound. One degree off at 130nm out before changing over to the next VOR could make us up to over 2 miles off course (1 in 60 rule) at the VOR service volume limit. I don't want any phone numbers from a center controller because we're off course.
First of all, I don't file my own flight plans. We are an airline. Our Flight Followers are paid to do it. We have a 30 minute callout from phone call to showing up at the counter to look at the flight release. Another 30 minutes to get out to the airplane and fire up. Doing our own flight planning is simply impossible due to time.
I am not going to be plotting out any lines or using SkyVector (no computers are available to us at Operations anyway) when I'm busy sneaking in a quick shower at 2am for my 30 minutes showtime while our Flight Followers are supposed to be filing a proper and legal flight plan. It's not my job since I have no time to even do it, although I will be there to catch their errors and make them change it as I deal with preflighting the airplane they want blocking out in 30 minutes.
We as pilots cannot file our own flight plans - we are an airline with GOM/Ops Specs regulations that we must follow just like any other 121 airline. I'm not going to be a hero and file my own routing when it's completely against our SOPs without coordinating with dispatch.
Thankfully, in a few weeks I'll be on the DC-9 as Captain anyway and won't be having to deal with non-GPS aircraft. I merely wanted to ensure I was doing things correctly with this particular aircraft and I think you guys helped me confirm that I have.
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NewYorkophile
Fly Casual
My dad used a sextant as a Nav. So, there.
I actually took my first sextant fix just 3 months ago
They stopped formally teaching it about 15yrs ago.
adk
Steals Hotel Toilet Paper
If filing off airway from XXX-YYY and they're exactly 260nm apart we've already established that it's legal to file. The limitation is in your EFB equipment, and I wouldn't expect a flight follower to understand that. Your chief pilot might not even understand it if he doesn't fly the single black sheep of the fleet. If you care enough, the onus is on you to bring it to your CP's attention.
z987k
Well-Known Member
So call the dispatcher and make them figure out the radials. If they file the route wrong, throw it back to them and say fix it. When you do, then we'll go. Use some PIC authority to set that parking break until stuff is correct and legal. I might bring it to someone's attention before it gets to that point, but if they refuse to address the problem then just sit there.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
Here something to think about. You might get fired for causing all this trouble when other guys aren't making an issue. I'd suggest you talk to your boss and see what he suggests. If you don't like the answer then expect to not be working there much longer and/or seek other employment. By the way, if Center thinks your a tad off while doing your VOR to VOR radial thing, they will give you a vector down the road. They aren't going to notice, or care, about a mile or two. It's all about vertical separation these days. That makes them happy.
JaceTheAce
Well-Known Member
I do exercise my PIC authority and set the parking brake until it's fixed - me the majority of us do care about flying legally.
It's not just me - the majority of us are making an issue of it. I can't get fired for throwing a fit about being filed to a VOR that is NOTAM'ed out and not even in service. If it's an illegal flight plan I ain't flyin' until it's fixed.
The problem is some people who really should be knowing these regulations are confused and don't know how to properly file for this airplane. I've already brought it to the attention to the appropriate people. I just want to make sure I understand it very well too so I can help out and teach them.
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flyboy6585
Well-Known Member
Chill man, you said you are flying a Falcon 20...you never said airline. I have flown with a pseudo dispatch before and filed my own plans at times...not that cosmic but if your operation/schedule/"it's his job not mine"/GOM don't allow you to take matters into your own hands then don't take the airplane, that's fine! Call dispatch or the Chief Pilot and discuss proper non GPS aircraft dispatch and flight plan requirements. Your basic assessment of what is and isn't legal was correct.
Enjoy the DC-9, from what I have heard it is a neat plane.
JaceTheAce
Well-Known Member
Oops, I should've specified. I apologize.
The DC-9 is an awesome airplane. I flew it for a while before the Falcon 20. The DC-9 is a super reliable bird.
z987k
Well-Known Member
Then I'm not sure what the issue is.
