JaceTheAce
Well-Known Member
I have a question with regard to filing a Falcon 20 without GPS (RVSM capable). For the past year I've been a Captain on a Falcon 20. This is the first time in 8 years of flying Part 121 and 135 that I've had to fly an airplane without GPS. Even my primary training aircraft had IFR-capable GPSs.
One of our airplanes in the Falcon fleet is not equipped with a GPS. Much of my flying with this particular jet has brought a lot of problems with our Flight Followers (Dispatchers) when I vet their flight planning. I demand either established jet routes or VOR to VOR on non-jet-routes to be within VOR service volumes. AMIRIGHT? Okay. With that, I've delayed the operation enough to where it's become a problem. I just wanted reassurance from someone with a close orientation with the regs. Ask any 20,000 hour major airline captain who's been flying an Airbus A330 across the pond and you'll get widely varied answers, and most of them that won't even have a clue (I don't blame them - I'd forget it all too).
My understanding of the limitations involved with filing a non-GPS jet at FL350 pretty much guarantees my denial of the flight plan filing and I end up arguing with multiple people until it gets changed. I'm tired of wasting paper when our flight release shows a route that is illegal for me to accept, for the second and third time even. "Nope! Sorry, send me another" - there goes 80 pages of a poor undeserving tree. One of the problems our Flight Followers have been doing is filing canned flight plans that are clearly meant for GPS-equipped airplanes and not even checking VOR equipment NOTAMs. They are busy too and I don't blame them. We will often be filed from a VOR direct to an airport (obviously a GPS fix), one time I was even filed to an NDB enroute well beyond NDB service volumes - totally illegal.
Here is my understanding and correct me if I'm wrong:
1) We must not be filed direct to a GPS/RNAV fix as our first fix (SIDs or VORs only).
2) Enroute:
My question: Our Flight Followers are saying that they can file us from VOR to VOR with no published airway and changeover points in between (and no filed radial and DME) up to 260nm. My understanding is that we are limited to 130nm but can go up to 260nm as long as you filed a radial and DME outbound of the first VOR before going direct to the second. Is this correct?
The Instrument Procedures Handbook makes it more vague and confusing:
And VOR service volumes to refresh your memory:
One of our airplanes in the Falcon fleet is not equipped with a GPS. Much of my flying with this particular jet has brought a lot of problems with our Flight Followers (Dispatchers) when I vet their flight planning. I demand either established jet routes or VOR to VOR on non-jet-routes to be within VOR service volumes. AMIRIGHT? Okay. With that, I've delayed the operation enough to where it's become a problem. I just wanted reassurance from someone with a close orientation with the regs. Ask any 20,000 hour major airline captain who's been flying an Airbus A330 across the pond and you'll get widely varied answers, and most of them that won't even have a clue (I don't blame them - I'd forget it all too).
My understanding of the limitations involved with filing a non-GPS jet at FL350 pretty much guarantees my denial of the flight plan filing and I end up arguing with multiple people until it gets changed. I'm tired of wasting paper when our flight release shows a route that is illegal for me to accept, for the second and third time even. "Nope! Sorry, send me another" - there goes 80 pages of a poor undeserving tree. One of the problems our Flight Followers have been doing is filing canned flight plans that are clearly meant for GPS-equipped airplanes and not even checking VOR equipment NOTAMs. They are busy too and I don't blame them. We will often be filed from a VOR direct to an airport (obviously a GPS fix), one time I was even filed to an NDB enroute well beyond NDB service volumes - totally illegal.
Here is my understanding and correct me if I'm wrong:
1) We must not be filed direct to a GPS/RNAV fix as our first fix (SIDs or VORs only).
2) Enroute:
a) Must be filed on a published jet airway between VOR to VOR (J123, J45, etc).
b) Or, if not using an airway you must be filed between a high altitude VOR recognizing high altitude service volume limitations, which are 130nm in the flight levels (ie, FWA-PXV)
c) Or, if using low altitude VORs (surprisingly they are all over the country) we must be cruising at or below FL180 - they're limited to FL180 and 40nm in radius.
d) If beyond 130nm in between high altitude VORs you can go up to 260nm between them, as long as you file a radial plus DME (ie, PXV275130 - PXV 275º and 130nm) and then direct to the next VOR that's within another 130nm.
e) Or, recognizing that terminal VORs are limited to 12,000 feet and 25nm.
4) The last navigational fix to the destination must be a VOR on a published instrument procedure portion of that destination airport. We must know how to get to the airport without radar vectors if we go Lost Comm.b) Or, if not using an airway you must be filed between a high altitude VOR recognizing high altitude service volume limitations, which are 130nm in the flight levels (ie, FWA-PXV)
c) Or, if using low altitude VORs (surprisingly they are all over the country) we must be cruising at or below FL180 - they're limited to FL180 and 40nm in radius.
d) If beyond 130nm in between high altitude VORs you can go up to 260nm between them, as long as you file a radial plus DME (ie, PXV275130 - PXV 275º and 130nm) and then direct to the next VOR that's within another 130nm.
e) Or, recognizing that terminal VORs are limited to 12,000 feet and 25nm.
My question: Our Flight Followers are saying that they can file us from VOR to VOR with no published airway and changeover points in between (and no filed radial and DME) up to 260nm. My understanding is that we are limited to 130nm but can go up to 260nm as long as you filed a radial and DME outbound of the first VOR before going direct to the second. Is this correct?
The Instrument Procedures Handbook makes it more vague and confusing:
And VOR service volumes to refresh your memory:
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