Failed checkrides

[JDean3204]

I hear ya, but then I think one guy without any pilot license or training took a Q, started engines, taxied out, took off, maneuvered all around, fully looped it successfully........ and it’s like man either this thing isn’t too hard to fly or Microsoft Flight Sim really is “as real as it gets.”

You could do that in an Airbus man... FSX is very realistic, and the videos available to start a plane from cold and dark are spot on usually. I’m willing to bet even though ole dude flew the plane, his maneuvers weren’t within standards of said checkride you are giving people a hard time for busting. Now as far as the roll, yeah that wouldn’t have happened in the bus haha

 

[A300Capt]

We are talking about real airplanes...Le'Bus is does not qualify as that. Q400 is, by far, in the Top 3 "Toughest Transport Category" to fly. (@mikecweb
's MD-11 takes the cake, it'll kill ya).

The MD11 may not be statistically as *forgiving* as most other transport category aircraft, but I’ve found it to be my favorite to fly so far. I’ve had consistently better landings in it than any airplane I’ve flown. The automation, both system and flight, is fantastic. It’s Uber quiet in the cockpit, fast and comfortable. If you treat her with respect she’ll take care of you....if not, well...it’s not called the Maddog for nothin’

You just have to pay attention to what you’re doing (true in any airplane) and don’t become complacent..you’ll be fine.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

You could do that in an Airbus man... FSX is very realistic, and the videos available to start a plane from cold and dark are spot on usually. I’m willing to bet even though ole dude flew the plane, his maneuvers weren’t within standards of said checkride you are giving people a hard time for busting. Now as far as the roll, yeah that wouldn’t have happened in the bus haha

The Airbus is easy, it was designed that way. Turboprops are generally harder to learn/fly than jets. Way more levers and buttons too.

 

[SurferLucas]

I hear ya, but then I think one guy without any pilot license or training took a Q, started engines, taxied out, took off, maneuvered all around, fully looped it successfully........ and it’s like man either this thing isn’t too hard to fly or Microsoft Flight Sim really is “as real as it gets.”

Starting the engines on the Q400 is stupid simple...flip a switch, push a button and move the condition lever to "start/feather".

I wouldn't call what he did flying either...he took off with Flaps 0, and almost ate it on rotation (this is from the SEA Controller who witnessed it).

As for the other, the Q400 held up beautifully considering all the hell he put that aircraft through. Overspeed/overstress/etc.

As the saying goes "Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good" (which, that phrase dates back to a P-35 pilot that got tangled up with some Zero's in WWII). His was all pure, dumb luck.

 

[highflyer14]

How about a single, 121 initial ATP failure? Passed 3 days later. What are some ways I can “show” I’ve learned and improved. I know that passing my remaining Recurrent’s and upgrade to captain are a no brainer but I would like to eventually get involved in the training department and be a LCA down the line primarily because I love teaching but also in hopes of improving my chances at the big 3. Would this failure (and a PPL failure from a decade ago) eliminate my chances at the big 3?

 

[Richman]

When the Federales required copilots receive type ratings, there’s a couple regionals where some instructors would hand out failures like wet naps at B-Dubbs. Instead of having the cajones to brief a minor deviance, they basically failed applicants for idiotic reasons.

Maybe ancient history, but in or around 1988, the Feds decided that DPEs were not handing CFI to their liking. They transitioned to all initial CFI rides being done by the FAA. If your 141 school had CFI examining authority, it was revoked. When the backlog of applicants exceeded X months (I forgot the number), they started letting a select group of DPEs take up the slack, but the backlog was still impressive.

There were all kinds of rumors as to why the FAA went this way. Some said the DPEs were being too easy, others said the Feds didn't like the CFI being used as a stepping stone, yet others said they went this way because they wanted CFIs to be "dedicated" and this was a screening mechanism. I never heard anything backed up with facts.

During this transition was where you saw the "larger oral footprint" take hold. It was to the point where 6-8 hour orals were common, you planned a 2 day event, and drove to your checkride at the FSDO. If you got past the oral, you'd fly up the next day (and, hopefully, your airplane was squared away with it's paperwork as well).

The bust rate was significant. In fact, at one point, a first time pass was an extreme outlier. People tried to game the system by doing CFIIs/MEIs as initial rides, since the material was more cut'n'dried, but I'm not sure it ever made a difference.

Needless to say, there was some trauma involved.

I haven't heard from anyone lately that's been through the process, other than to say it's "a significant challenge".

Now on the 121 side, AQP was SUPPOSED to be something different. Lot's of easier, shorter hoops to jump. If you missed a jump, you spun up, no harm no foul, and continued with the process. An "incomplete" didn't necessarily mean "failure". As long as you got to the end and as long as you did OK, you got the ticket with a lot less drama rather than one huge all or nothing total jeopardy event checkride at the end.

Some outfits decided that while they like the cost savings that AQP provides, they don't like the "no jeopardy aspect" for what ever reason, and now every event, no matter how minor, is a jeopardy event. No good deed, it appears....

 

[T/O w/FSII]

Maybe ancient history, but in or around 1988, the Feds decided that DPEs were not handing CFI to their liking. They transitioned to all initial CFI rides being done by the FAA. If your 141 school had CFI examining authority, it was revoked. When the backlog of applicants exceeded X months (I forgot the number), they started letting a select group of DPEs take up the slack, but the backlog was still impressive.

There were all kinds of rumors as to why the FAA went this way. Some said the DPEs were being too easy, others said the Feds didn't like the CFI being used as a stepping stone, yet others said they went this way because they wanted CFIs to be "dedicated" and this was a screening mechanism. I never heard anything backed up with facts.

During this transition was where you saw the "larger oral footprint" take hold. It was to the point where 6-8 hour orals were common, you planned a 2 day event, and drove to your checkride at the FSDO. If you got past the oral, you'd fly up the next day (and, hopefully, your airplane was squared away with it's paperwork as well).

The bust rate was significant. In fact, at one point, a first time pass was an extreme outlier. People tried to game the system by doing CFIIs/MEIs as initial rides, since the material was more cut'n'dried, but I'm not sure it ever made a difference.

Needless to say, there was some trauma involved.

I haven't heard from anyone lately that's been through the process, other than to say it's "a significant challenge".

Now on the 121 side, AQP was SUPPOSED to be something different. Lot's of easier, shorter hoops to jump. If you missed a jump, you spun up, no harm no foul, and continued with the process. An "incomplete" didn't necessarily mean "failure". As long as you got to the end and as long as you did OK, you got the ticket with a lot less drama rather than one huge all or nothing total jeopardy event checkride at the end.

Some outfits decided that while they like the cost savings that AQP provides, they don't like the "no jeopardy aspect" for what ever reason, and now every event, no matter how minor, is a jeopardy event. No good deed, it appears....

I did my 2 day long CFI initial checkride, at the FSDO in 2013. They started giving it to DPE’s
again around 2016. Oral was 6-8 hours with breaks of course. First flight was discontinued due to the field going IFR and couldn’t get the VOT check to work. My decision to go back. Waited a week for better VFR weather.

It hindsight it was long but I came prepared with more books and material then a small library. People aren’t failing just because it’s at the FSDO with a fed, they are failing because they aren’t prepared and don’t know how to teach.

When I tell people I passed on my first try they are shocked. It shouldn’t be that way if you show up ready.

Want a real eye opener? Go to work for a DPE for awhile. You should hear the stories from the other side.

FWIW a DPE for a CFI in SoCal now runs $1000. That’s the pretty good incentive to show up prepared.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Now on the 121 side, AQP was SUPPOSED to be something different. Lot's of easier, shorter hoops to jump. If you missed a jump, you spun up, no harm no foul, and continued with the process. An "incomplete" didn't necessarily mean "failure". As long as you got to the end and as long as you did OK, you got the ticket with a lot less drama rather than one huge all or nothing total jeopardy event checkride at the end.

Some outfits decided that while they like the cost savings that AQP provides, they don't like the "no jeopardy aspect" for what ever reason, and now every event, no matter how minor, is a jeopardy event. No good deed, it appears....

Yup, I can't tell the difference between the traditional 121 programs I've gone through and the bastard AQP implementation at old-job. Everything is jeopardy, not finishing is unsat, the MV was saturated, and there's basically time to repeat maybe one maneuver (which you haven't done in 11 months, mind you) on it.

I wonder how EET went.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

FWIW a DPE for a CFI in SoCal now runs $1000. That’s the pretty good incentive to show up prepared.

$1200.00 where I am.

 

[GypsyPilot]

Yup, I can't tell the difference between the traditional 121 programs I've gone through and the bastard AQP implementation at old-job. Everything is jeopardy, not finishing is unsat, the MV was saturated, and there's basically time to repeat maybe one maneuver (which you haven't done in 11 months, mind you) on it.

I wonder how EET went.

For whatever reason, there’s WAY less pressure at my current place for all of the AQP events I’ve done so far (initial, recurrent, and also an extra MV when I couldn’t consolidate).

At my/our old place, I always felt there was that implied threat of “you could fail this”. Now it’s more like “Hey guys, here’s some interesting things we’ve seen that we’d like you to learn about”. Probably more of what AQP was intended for, and I like it.

 

[nibake]

Maybe there is something wrong with me, but CFI was the most enjoyable checkride I have done. I spoke with one FSDO and the examiner seemed, well, like an appendage, and told me according the FAA if I reschedule one time he can make me wait as long as he likes since the FAA order requires him to schedule once in the first two months, and he fulfilled his responsibility so now it's my problem (exact times and words are foggy). As soon as I got off the phone, I called the next nearest FSDO. The examiner I spoke with was helpful and promptly scheduled me. He had also helped with some questions I hard regarding endorsements when I was getting ready.

The oral lasted about 2 hours. Granted, it was very extensive, covering a broad range of knowledge, but no questions were too in depth or tricky. So the questions were quick and the answers were quick. I can imagine that depending on the examiner/examinee that same group of questions could have taken 6 hours. I once had an examiner like that, great examiner, great guy, and great pilot, but, boy, he took his time on orals, mainly because his scenario based questions involved long and interesting stories to set up the scenario.

The reason I enjoyed the check ride more than others was simply that I got to talk. I even got to tell the examiner what he was doing wrong on his maneuver! I found the fact that I was mock teaching far more pleasant than taking a check ride in nervous silence.

 

[nibake]

Getting ready for my first AQP experience. Fortunately it won't be with @Autothrust Blue 's old shop. Anything I should know?

 

[GypsyPilot]

Getting ready for my first AQP experience. Fortunately it won't be with @Autothrust Blue 's old shop. Anything I should know?

Honestly at AB’s old shop it was very straight forward, as it will be at your place I’m sure. Study what you’re supposed to, and you’ll be fine. I’ve done tons of these, and they really aren’t a big deal and are way more straightforward than part 91 checkrides. The airlines want everyone to pass.

 

[JordanD]

Yup, I can't tell the difference between the traditional 121 programs I've gone through and the bastard AQP implementation at old-job. Everything is jeopardy, not finishing is unsat, the MV was saturated, and there's basically time to repeat maybe one maneuver (which you haven't done in 11 months, mind you) on it.

I wonder how EET went.

EET was non jeopardy and was actually pretty eye-opening and I'll say it... fun. All probably wildly depends on what instructor you get too.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

Honestly at AB’s old shop it was very straight forward, as it will be at your place I’m sure. Study what you’re supposed to, and you’ll be fine. I’ve done tons of these, and they really aren’t a big deal and are way more straightforward than part 91 checkrides. The airlines want everyone to pass.

Isn't your old place giving new hires an iPad. And sending them home for a few weeks saying study this and come back here knowledgeable? If so, then no bueno.

 

[GypsyPilot]

Isn't your old place giving new hires an iPad. And sending them home for a few weeks saying study this and come back here knowledgeable? If so, then no bueno.

I don’t know, but my current place does something similar. What’s the problem? Need your hand held or something?

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

I don’t know, but my current place does something similar. What’s the problem? Need your hand held or something?

Well... obviously never done 121 training before. So, have nothing to fall back on. But I generally learn better in a structured classroom type environment. But I'll openly admit that I really struggled in the beginning of my IFR in an accelerated, self study style of learning. It was a totally different, learning environment than I'd ever been in. I kinda got it now, but more used to leaning in a university style environment. Which in aviation would probably be considered hand holding.

 

[GypsyPilot]

Well... obviously never done 121 training before. So, have nothing to fall back on. But I generally learn better in a structured classroom type environment. But I'll openly admit that I really struggled in the beginning of my IFR in an accelerated, self study style of teaching/learning. It was a totally different, learning environment than I'd ever been in. I kinda got it now, but more used to leaning in a university style environment. Which in aviation would probably be considered hand holding.

Well I don’t know what SkyWest does these days, it used to be a what you described... A few weeks of ground school in a classroom. A lot of airlines are moving away from that, including the LCC/Major/Legacies.

My current place was all CBTs, followed by 4 days of cram school, with a test at the end. That seems to be where the industry is headed, so hopefully you’re able to figure out how to make that style work for you.

 

[GypsyPilot]

Max,

I’d also add that I’ve NEVER encountered a “sink or swim” course at any of the airlines. Even with CBTs, they have a program that works well and you WILL pass if you study. The only people I’ve ever seen fail had some other issues going on, like partying the night before or not studying.

In other words, you’ll be fine. Just worry about getting to the airlines first. That’s seriously the hardest part.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

Well I don’t know what SkyWest does these days, it used to be a what you described... A few weeks of ground school in a classroom. A lot of airlines are moving away from that, including the LCC/Major/Legacies.

My current place was all CBTs, followed by 4 days of cram school, with a test at the end. That seems to be where the industry is headed, so hopefully you’re able to figure out how to make that style work for you.

Well... it has never been anything like that. More like tomorrow where my instructor says were doing approaches and holds, while he's signing my logbook . Study up on that, know this or that related to approaches and holds cold. Then tomorrow comes and he asks me about what he told me to study. Followed by a bunch of other stuff he didn't. I stare back at him blankly. And he says did you even study the material?

Lots of late night calls to @jtrain609 occurred.

But I've learned since then to study and know EVERYTHING. Not just what you're told to study.