Factual NTSB Report from Ben's Crash

MikeD said:
Already is there. A fuel gauge, backed up by dipping the tanks and knowing exactly how much is in there.

Secondly, there is no evidence that the Tox results did have an effect on his performance, as right now, the levels present aren't known.

Remember, he didn't run the plane out of fuel. He ran one tank out of fuel.
Click to expand...

I do the same preflight I learned how to do 12+ years ago when I was young grasshopper pilot. Only difference now is that I check the fuel twice, and the last few MX squawks closely.

I've run a tank dry before, and screwed up the fuel selector. Sure I could screw it up again.

Without being there though, I have no idea. Something else could easily distract anyone, especially me.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
Without being there though, I have no idea. Something else could easily distract anyone, especially me.
Click to expand...

There are tons of distractions, especially during an emergency. How one manages or controls those distractions will depend on a number of factors including, but not limited to: training, currency, systems knowledge, personality type, ability to control panic, and any number of other factors.
 
MikeD said:
There are tons of distractions, especially during an emergency. How one manages or controls those distractions will depend on a number of factors including, but not limited to: training, currency, systems knowledge, personality type, ability to control panic, and any number of other factors.
Click to expand...

And it sure sucks to Monday morning quarterback what happened to someone we all like and respected. Just hope it helps me teach my own students a little bit better than I otherwise would have.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
And it sure sucks to Monday morning quarterback what happened to someone we all like and respected. Just hope it helps me teach my own students a little bit better than I otherwise would have.
Click to expand...

I don't see any Monday Morning QBing here, in any negative connotation; just an analysis of factual items only. No different than I do in my Accident Synopses I write. Im ensuring that it's kept to the facts only, and not assumption, conjecture, or anything not supported by fact. Thats why the Tox results, for example, I make sure to specify that they are a stand-alone piece of evidence with no factual basis for its degree of contribution to anything, as only their presence is known, not their levels.

Like i said before, if we can't remove the personal element out of this, and analyze it coldly....the cold hard facts.......like we would any other accident; then the tragedy of it will have been for naught.
 
I remember reading in BC/A or ProPilot, that an astounding number of dead pilots have Diphenhydramine in their blood when they die at the controls. Something like 23%? They were writing about a challenger I believe in international ops departing England for the states IIRC. Pretty amazing statistic. They (the magazine) were postulating that it very subtly affected judgement, to the not so subtle results.
Having gone through a very similar experience to Ben's (shortly after his final flight with obviously a much luckier outcome) it is amazing how things seem to go at mach 3 and standing still at the same time.
 
Itchy said:
I remember reading in BC/A or ProPilot, that an astounding number of dead pilots have Diphenhydramine in their blood when they die at the controls. Something like 23%? They were writing about a challenger I believe in international ops departing England for the states IIRC. Pretty amazing statistic. They (the magazine) were postulating that it very subtly affected judgement, to the not so subtle results.
Having gone through a very similar experience to Ben's (shortly after his final flight with obviously a much luckier outcome) it is amazing how things seem to go at mach 3 and standing still at the same time.
Click to expand...
There is no postulation involved. It definitely effects judgement, which is why it isn't allowed. I think only the newest generation of non-sedating antihistamines are allowed (Allegra, Claratin, etc.)

Check this page: http://www.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/research/job185drugs/diphenhydramine.htm

It is worse than alcohol.
 
^^^ From your link : "Panel’s Assessment of Driving Risks: Single therapeutic doses of diphenhydramine have been shown to significantly impair psychomotor performance during the first 4 hours, and may have a greater impact on driving performance than alcohol."

The article I was talking about was postulating using the drug to help the crew fall asleep because they were in a jet lag situation. So, even though it had been (I am guessing here) many hours since they took it, i.e., the "night" before, it was still present.
 
Again, all good information about those various drugs. And depending on the actual level found, it may or may not have a tie-in to some degree to the accident. More important than the toxins found though, is the training/habit info regarding systems knowledge and poossible issues with that; which stresses the need for this knowledge to always be at a high level.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
And it sure sucks to Monday morning quarterback what happened to someone we all like and respected. Just hope it helps me teach my own students a little bit better than I otherwise would have.
Click to expand...

I'm not sensing any Monday am QB'ing. This IS a necessity of this business. It's a necessity of a lot of businesses (auto racing, SCUBA diving, Freediving, girl chasing, etc.). Anything that there is a high level of risk, and a real possibility of catastrophic failure, including death. Losing friends is tough. Losing more to the same mistake or catastrophic event is worse. I didn't know Ben, but it sounds like he was highly skilled and a capable pilot. It would be foolish to overlook the significance of ONE mistake by a highly skilled and capable pilot, and not find hard learned lessons to take away from this event.

I know that a lot of guys on here can relate to this; in my first 2 years of being in the Navy, I lost 5 friends to aviation incidents. Guys that I spent time with outside of work. One of them on Presidents Day Weekend, in front of his wife and children. I was the controller working FCLP's with the LSO for another. Then there was the close call at FJDG. And then Nazy Hirani's crash... And I'm sure that there are guys who have lost many more than me. Point being we work in an inherently dangerous industry. It is IMPERATIVE that these incidents get thoroughly investigated, and lessons communicated in an objective manner.

We would be doing Ben a dis-service to NOT do whatever we can to prevent something like this from happening to another member of the forum, or to one of our peers.
 
GX said:
I'm not sensing any Monday am QB'ing. This IS a necessity of this business. It's a necessity of a lot of businesses (auto racing, SCUBA diving, Freediving, girl chasing, etc.). Anything that there is a high level of risk, and a real possibility of catastrophic failure, including death. Losing friends is tough. Losing more to the same mistake or catastrophic event is worse. I didn't know Ben, but it sounds like he was highly skilled and a capable pilot. It would be foolish to overlook the significance of ONE mistake by a highly skilled and capable pilot, and not find hard learned lessons to take away from this event.
Click to expand...

Everyone was the "best pilot there was" after they perish in a plane crash.

Secondly, it's not known if it was one mistake, a series of mistakes, or a deficiency. So I wouldn't be jumping to that conclusion yet, necessarily.
 
MikeD said:
Everyone was the "best pilot there was" after they perish in a plane crash.

Secondly, it's not known if it was one mistake, a series of mistakes, or a deficiency. So I wouldn't be jumping to that conclusion yet, necessarily.
Click to expand...

No jumping here, Mike. Just making a point. It could have been 100 mistakes. An objective debriefing is necessary regardless of the the relationship.

*The one mistake I highlighted was the tank switch. And even that is inconclusive.
 
It may be cold comfort, but even when friends and acquaintances are involved, I prefer reports where pilot error may have contributed. As many have said, every pilot is one ill-timed mistake away...

But at least we know there are things which could have been done. Nothing scares me more than defects or external situations pilots are unable or unqualified to detect. Everyone should have agency in their fate.
 
Nothing to add to this discussion besides a props to Mike. Mike is a wealth of knowledge on this website and is jumping into the line of fire by evaluating this accident without personal ties. It's not personal, it's finding out what really happened, or the best guess, and trying to prevent others to do the same. Even if Ben screwed up, not saying he did, or did not, but if he did, I know he'd want to make sure others wouldn't make the same mistake(s), even if that shows him in nonperfect light. RIP Ben.

Excuse the grammar.
 
We're all capable of errors, in fact, flying is nothing more than a exercise in error management and we really have to learn from this and move forward.
 
Just an FYI...

Diphenhydramine is the active ingredient in Benadryl, which is about as widely used for a multitude of symptoms as aspirin. Lots of people use it as a sleep aid (in fact, there is at least one OTC sleep aid product marketed that way) as well as an anti-allergy, and antihistamine. Good for knocking out recalcitrant toddlers on flights, too.

The stuff makes me feel like I'm operating 1-2 seconds behind reality.
 
killbilly said:
Just an FYI...

Diphenhydramine is the active ingredient in Benadryl, which is about as widely used for a multitude of symptoms as aspirin. Lots of people use it as a sleep aid (in fact, there is at least one OTC sleep aid product marketed that way) as well as an anti-allergy, and antihistamine. Good for knocking out recalcitrant toddlers on flights, too.

The stuff makes me feel like I'm operating 1-2 seconds behind reality.
Click to expand...

The vein clinic I run did a small test. One day we gave half the patients a Valium prior to their procedure (just a small dose, to relax them). The other half we gave a similar dose of Benadryl. The vascular techs said the Benadryl was more effective. That's what we use now - it just does a better job on a larger number of people.
 
killbilly said:
The stuff makes me feel like I'm operating 1-2 seconds behind reality.
Click to expand...

That is the best description I've ever heard of how I feel after having taken diphenhydroamine! It's exactly like operating 1-2 seconds behind reality.

I will say again that not everyone reacts the same to medications... so whether or not it made Ben feel that way, I have no idea. That would be a question for his parents or wife, they may (or may not) know how he reacted to it.

Caffeine has no effect on me. Nothing. I can drink a can of full-caffiene pop and go to straight to bed. I took a couple NoDoze once in college, because everybody else said "Take NoDoze to stay awake & study!" Within an hour I was sound asleep drooling on my Genetics book. My dad though, can't drink pop after about 4 pm, or it keeps him awake half the night! How people react to chemical medications can vary widely from person to person.

Medications like that in a person's system in post-accident findings are something to consider as a possible factor, but can't be singly blamed for an outcome.
 
MQAAord said:
That is the best description I've ever heard of how I feel after having taken diphenhydroamine! It's exactly like operating 1-2 seconds behind reality.

I will say again that not everyone reacts the same to medications... so whether or not it made Ben feel that way, I have no idea. That would be a question for his parents or wife, they may (or may not) know how he reacted to it.

Caffeine has no effect on me. Nothing. I can drink a can of full-caffiene pop and go to straight to bed. I took a couple NoDoze once in college, because everybody else said "Take NoDoze to stay awake & study!" Within an hour I was sound asleep drooling on my Genetics book. My dad though, can't drink pop after about 4 pm, or it keeps him awake half the night! How people react to chemical medications can vary widely from person to person.

Medications like that in a person's system in post-accident findings are something to consider as a possible factor, but can't be singly blamed for an outcome.
Click to expand...

I think a lot of people operate on a placebo effect. Benadryl may in fact work better than Valium for most people - but if you say "we use Benadryl because it's more effective than Valium" and give people a choice after telling them that - they will most of the time choose Benadryl - and it will work - and I'm convinced that a lot of it is placebo effect. You tell yourself that caffeine has no effect...therefore it doesn't. Your dad is conditioned that a Coke after 4PM will keep him up all night, therefore it does. Not saying there isn't a physiological reason - just that the mind has an enormous capacity to "trick" the body.
 
Well, all the other kids in college told me "Take NoDoze to stay awake & study!" According to the placebo effect, I should have been up all night! But I wasn't... I really did fall asleep on my Genetics book that night. I was 19 at the time, and didn't have any preconceived notions about caffeine. I just saw everyone else taking NoDoze to stay awake & study so I did it too and it didn't work the same for me.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top