FAA Proposal for ATP/1500 Rule

skydisaster said:
§61.154 ATP Certification Training Program: Airplane Category – Multiengine Class
Rating or Aircraft Type Rating.
After July 31, 2013, a person who applies for the knowledge test for an airline transport
pilot certificate with an airplane category multiengine class rating or an aircraft type rating
must present a certificate of completion from an authorized training provider certifying the
applicant has completed the following training in a course approved by the Administrator
under part 121, 135, 141, or 142 of this chapter.
Click to expand...

Thus begins the shutdown of part 91 operations and part 61 flight schools. It's a shame that this is the route they are going to use to do it.
 
If this goes through as its written I wonder how the job market might change. Will airline jobs, especially at the regionals, be tougher to fill and the pay go up? Will 135 jobs that don't require an ATP be in higher demand and thus pay less? Makes be glad I got into aviation before this legislation. I think this is going to make it alot harder for someone to get into flying, most so for a pilot wanting to working for a 121 carrier.
 
I didn't see any effective date. I'll probably want to put it off as much as possible to try to avoid paying for it.
 
skydisaster said:
§61.154 ATP Certification Training Program: Airplane Category – Multiengine Class
Rating or Aircraft Type Rating.
After July 31, 2013, a person who applies for the knowledge test for an airline transport
pilot certificate with an airplane category multiengine class rating or an aircraft type rating
must present a certificate of completion from an authorized training provider certifying the
applicant has completed the following training in a course approved by the Administrator
under part 121, 135, 141, or 142 of this chapter.
(a) Academic training. The applicant for the knowledge test must receive at least 24 hours
of classroom instruction that includes the following:
(1) At least 5 hours of instruction on high altitude operations, including aerodynamics and
physiology;
(2) At least 3 hours of instruction on meteorology, including adverse weather phenomena
and weather radar; and
(3) At least 12 hours of instruction on air carrier operations, including turbine engines,
transport category aircraft performance, automation, communications, checklist
philosophy, and operational control.
(b) FSTD Training. The applicant for the knowledge test must receive at least 16 hours of
training in a flight simulation training device qualified under part 60 of this chapter that
represents a multiengine turbine airplane. The training must include the following:
(1) At least 8 hours of training in a Level C or higher full flight simulator on
(i) Low energy states/stalls;
(ii) Upset recovery techniques; and
(iii) Adverse weather conditions, including icing, thunderstorms, and crosswinds with
gusts; and
(2) At least 8 hours of training in a Level 4 or higher flight training device or a full flight
simulator on
(i) Aircraft performance;
(ii) Navigation;
(iii) Automation; and
(iv) Crew resource management.
Click to expand...
:sarcasm: Cuz flying through icing conditions is kids play (end of sarcasm)
I think someone with 1500TT has experienced some icing, and adverse to dangerous weather conditions.
 
Not necessarily. You'd be amazed at how many newhire FOs I flew with who had extensive CFI experience and never once saw what icing even looked like. "Wow, is that ice on the windshield wiper? I've never seen that before. That's so cool!" Unless he CFI'd or flew part 135 up north, it's unlikely that a 1,500 hour newhire has seen real icing conditions.
 
Roger Roger said:
What a steaming pile this is.
Click to expand...
I'm quasi inclined to agree, I think it's garbage that my oodles of single pilot time in the last few years mean nothing towards an upgrade - irregardless of potential future seniority numbers, but I also think the frozen ATP concept is valid and useable. Not to say that it won't take my scuzzy ass 1000hrs of right seat time to get used to what's required in some fast mover, but the principle of guys with lot's of single pilot freight time being less qualified on paper than guys that threw the gear lever in the same airplane (1900 for example) for 1000hrs is beyond me. The fact that theoretically speaking, a guy could have 10,000hrs SPIFR in a 1900/Metroliner then go to Gulfstream, Lakes or (insert last surviving 121 metro operator here) and no longer be qualified to be a captain is mindblowing to me. That said, this will do good things for 121, probably bad things for 135. Pay will probably go up at 121 operators as the supply of ATP-able pilots diminishes overnight. Pay will probably go down at Alaska operators and mapping companies and flight schools with the glut of pilots trying to get up to 1500hrs. Pay at lower 48 cargo will probably go up due to the fact that cargo companies won't be able to keep anyone longer than 300hrs of flight time until they go off to the now better paying RJ world - especially for the ranks of metro and hondo drivers.

In the end, I see a world of:
Low Paid Bush Rats - High Fatalities out in West Alaska

Low Paid Entry Level Cargo Guys - Martex, Amflight Navajos, Keylime Navajos, Freight Runners 402s, etc.

Slightly Better Pay for Midlevel Cargo Guys - 1900 Drivers, Metros, FedEx Feeder guys, the few remaining Bandeirantes, etc. as companies try to juggle training these guys with keeping them around, the "skip the regional mess" may not be as enticing as it once was.

Slightly Better Pay for much of the charter and ondemand market - who's going to put up with crappy schedules and ridiculous callout periods when the regionals offer more?

Demonstrably Better Pay for the Regionals - First year pay will probably still suck, but I see there being a need to keep captains and FOs on longer since it will be more difficult to get both captains and FOs, the Unions will have a lot more bargaining power than I think they realize yet.

Static Wages in the Major-National world - Places like Spirit, Allegiant, JetBlue, and Virgin all still attractive to a lot of people, they'll continue to cause the regionals to atrite though the rate may be less.

Stagnate or Diminishing Wages in the Legacy Camps - They'll still have a readily available supply of people who are willing to make the leap. Hiring mins may go down, probably won't matter even if they do. With American talking about wanting to do more regional flying, I don't see the Legacy carriers slowing down in their outsourcing.

Of course all this could change rapidly if the economy makes another nose-dive, if gas goes to $8.50/gallon, or if some other calamity or terrorist attack otherwises intrudes into the next wave. That said, those of us with ATPs or enough total time now could be sitting relatively pretty by the end of 2013 - provided John Cusack's sketchy brother-in-law doesn't have to fly us out of a crumbling LA basin.
 
Interesting views on how this can play out. I think the RAA hates this. Who knows what the unintended consequences will be. Some regionals may have trouble staffing the airline, and who knows were that will go. Personally I don't give a crap for the bottom feeders.
What I do know is that this will put an end to time building in a RJ as that is no longer an option.
 
This is a great move towards "Safety" and has nothing to do with you folks in here advancing your career.

The "1000 hr" before upgrade is akin to 1 year of 121 flying. During that time, arguably you'll get a chance to see it all, from an FO position.

PPragman,

You and I know several folks with a great amount of SP and SPIFR that have no business in the 121 environment. These guys could fly circles around you and I in the environment they gained those hours, but will be lost in the sauce in the 121 environment. The restriction to have these guys swab the captains gear for 1000 hours will give them valuable learning time. Do they need all 1000 hours to figure it out? Probably not, however this NPRM isn't designed for those guys specifically, but everyone in a broad stroke.

There are also a number of people we know from the freight world, who I'd just assume walk to Denver, rather than get on their aircraft.

I'm sorry, but moving from the left seat of a 18,000 lb turbo prop to the left seat in a 100,000+ jet isn't the place to learn about: Inertia/ Momentum, intricacies of the FMS etc...

This isn't going to solve the problem completely, however it is a step in the right direction.
There are numerous guys who (through flow through agreements), are needing 100hours of IOE on the mainline equipment.
I can also cite several examples from my initial 121 class of guys who had double the total time I did, yet still couldn't pass.
 
I never understood the concept that it's ok for a low time pilot to "learn" in the right seat of a jet with zero skills to pull from, with paying pax aboard. Yet, A captain learning the operation/airplane from the left seat with an experienced FO with plenty of tools to draw from is the apocalypse.
 
Link said:
"The FAA proposes to allow pilots with an aviation degree or military
pilot experience to obtain an ATP certificate with restricted privileges with fewer than
1,500 hours total time as a pilot."


:cool: ... So someone with a B.S. Degree in Aviation Management won't need the 1,500 hours PIC for ATP? Awesome! o_O
 
jhugz said:
I never understood the concept that it's ok for a low time pilot to "learn" in the right seat of a jet with zero skills to pull from, with paying pax aboard. Yet, A captain learning the operation/airplane from the left seat with an experienced FO with plenty of tools to draw from is the apocalypse.
Click to expand...

The buck doesn't stop with the low time FO, but does with the PIC.
 
After thinking about it, I think the whole freight guys getting the shaft thing might be a little bit knee jerck. Yes, the idea is insulting that after 100 thousand hours you're still not qualified, but I do get it. It's a tough transition to go from doing whatever the hell you want to actually have another person there looking over your shoulder.

On top of that, how is having to have 1000 hours multi crew time really going to change anything. Like others have said, that's 1-2 years sitting right seat. What regional is upgrading faster than that? More over, what regional is hiring street captains? I just don't see the DOOOOOOM yet.

I think the elephant in the room is the "ATP certification course." the requirements for that thing look pretty damn steep. I can't imagine someone going out and paying for it on their own. It seems to me that the FAA is trying to make it to where you're not going to have an ATP unless you're actually flying for an airline.
 
Anything that slows down the ankle biting 250 hour wonder kids is a good thing!! I was hoping for an across the board 1500 hours ATP, but I figured the rule would get waaaay watered down. The law didn't get watered down as much as I thought, so I am happy, mostly. Nothing is pefect when painting with such a wide brush as the federal government, so I appreicate the fact they tried to "tailor" the law a little.

I don't think it is the end of the world for a freight dog to observe 121 operations from the right seat for a little while before calling the shots. There are subtleties. Quite frankly, some 135 guys are a lilttle more of the ornery/cussed types who are not used to working with someone else. The teamwork/flying-the-company-profile side of the 121 world was the hardest thing in training for both myself and my sim partner (both former SP 135 guys). Conversely, for a guy (for whatever reason) going from 121 Capt to Single Pilot 135, could definitely use some ride along time. But most 135 ops don't work that way.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top