FAA Proposal for ATP/1500 Rule

This really isn't a big deal; very few airlines hire directly into the left seat, and if they do, they're usually looking for a pretty well-defined set of experience and skills already. Not to say single-pilot guys can't go off and fly 121 in jets, but the company usually won't gamble when there are plenty of pilots with that type of resume on-hand.
 
Adler said:
...thanks...
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I'd reeeeeally like you to elaborate. How many with 1500+ hour pilots go and pay for a job? Do you really think 250 kids are ready for 121 turbine operations?! I cannot count the number of CAs I have flown with who said "thank God!" when I told them I was NOT a bridge programmer. I don't tell my CAs what my background is when we start a trip, but I have had more than a few say, "You flew for awhile before you came here didn't you...I have had some scary experiences with 250 (ish) hour pilots." This isn't a tribute to myself. This is what happens when someone gets flight experience.

I cannot believe the attitudes. Folks declaring they are "too good for props-even turbo props" because their job was an RJ. Does anyone remember when you HAD to have thousands of hours of CFI-ing, freight flying, etc. to not have your resume laughed at to fly for the "commuters".

I also cannot forget the conversations I had back in '08 when it was apparent the party was over. Kids whining that they would "have to instruct now. SIGH!!" And this doosey (person with fresh ME Comm, 250 TT; "I think XXXX regional should hire me, because I will work harder for less than the current FOs and that makes me marketable." Well awesome! You will do more than Junior Manning for less than 20k a year?!

Or how about this one; Person X, "The 1500 hour ATP is compelete BULL!!!....whine, whine, sniffle, sniffle" Me; "You realize that by the time this in place, you will have just over 1500 TT, and will effectively stop 250 hour wonders from under cutting you, (like you just proposed you were willing to undercut other pilots, but who's counting?)" Person X; "This law is awesome!!!" :rolleyes:
 
block30 said:
I cannot believe the attitudes. Folks declaring they are "too good for props-even turbo props" because their job was an RJ. Does anyone remember when you HAD to have thousands of hours of CFI-ing, freight flying, etc. to not have your resume laughed at to fly for the "commuters".

I also cannot forget the conversations I had back in '08 when it was apparent the party was over. Kids whining that they would "have to instruct now. SIGH!!" And this doosey (person with fresh ME Comm, 250 TT; "I think XXXX regional should hire me, because I will work harder for less than the current FOs and that makes me marketable." Well awesome! You will do more than Junior Manning for less than 20k a year?!
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I saw that a lot in 2008 when I got furloughed and went to fly for Cape Air. Very few people took me up on offers to walk resumes in, because flying a 402 was somehow beneath flying an RJ. Most waited around for jet jobs that never came.
 
dasleben said:
Very few people took me up on offers to walk resumes in, because flying a 402 was somehow beneath flying an RJ.
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The 402 has those big three bladed thingies hanging on the wings, and does not burn Jet-A. Whatever will we do without our coveted RJ job!? :sarcasm: Thanks for paying it forward, even if the folks with competitive times were blinded by SJS.
 
skydisaster said:
§61.154 ATP Certification Training Program: Airplane Category – Multiengine Class
Rating or Aircraft Type Rating.
After July 31, 2013, a person who applies for the knowledge test for an airline transport
pilot certificate with an airplane category multiengine class rating or an aircraft type rating
must present a certificate of completion from an authorized training provider certifying the
applicant has completed the following training in a course approved by the Administrator
under part 121, 135, 141, or 142 of this chapter.
(a) Academic training. The applicant for the knowledge test must receive at least 24 hours
of classroom instruction that includes the following:
(1) At least 5 hours of instruction on high altitude operations, including aerodynamics and
physiology;
(2) At least 3 hours of instruction on meteorology, including adverse weather phenomena
and weather radar; and
(3) At least 12 hours of instruction on air carrier operations, including turbine engines,
transport category aircraft performance, automation, communications, checklist
philosophy, and operational control.
(b) FSTD Training. The applicant for the knowledge test must receive at least 16 hours of
training in a flight simulation training device qualified under part 60 of this chapter that
represents a multiengine turbine airplane. The training must include the following:
(1) At least 8 hours of training in a Level C or higher full flight simulator on
(i) Low energy states/stalls;
(ii) Upset recovery techniques; and
(iii) Adverse weather conditions, including icing, thunderstorms, and crosswinds with
gusts; and
(2) At least 8 hours of training in a Level 4 or higher flight training device or a full flight
simulator on
(i) Aircraft performance;
(ii) Navigation;
(iii) Automation; and
(iv) Crew resource management.
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ya, might just have to rent a plane and get this done now before I have to deal with that crap, or just get hired at someplace where they will give me ATP+Type.
 
So what about all the charter operators like the one close to me that just has two king airs but requires its pilots to have ATP. After 2013 it will be too expensive for the average guy to go out and get one. Unless ATP comes up with a. Course that satisfies this
 
Doesn't sound like anything goes into effect until at least 2013, and right now, it's the status quo. This is just proposed rulemaking.

If you have the mins now, I would do the ATP ASAP.

Richman
 
IMHO, in the Piston/Turboprop world, the ATP rating has been used for several years to narrow down applicants in an oversupplied job market. Over time, I believe this will self correct, and these positions will be filled by commercial certificate holders. In the short term, I would want to be on the ATP holding side of the camp.
 
Nark said:
This is a great move towards "Safety" and has nothing to do with you folks in here advancing your career.

The "1000 hr" before upgrade is akin to 1 year of 121 flying. During that time, arguably you'll get a chance to see it all, from an FO position.

PPragman,

You and I know several folks with a great amount of SP and SPIFR that have no business in the 121 environment. These guys could fly circles around you and I in the environment they gained those hours, but will be lost in the sauce in the 121 environment. The restriction to have these guys swab the captains gear for 1000 hours will give them valuable learning time. Do they need all 1000 hours to figure it out? Probably not, however this NPRM isn't designed for those guys specifically, but everyone in a broad stroke.

There are also a number of people we know from the freight world, who I'd just assume walk to Denver, rather than get on their aircraft.

I'm sorry, but moving from the left seat of a 18,000 lb turbo prop to the left seat in a 100,000+ jet isn't the place to learn about: Inertia/ Momentum, intricacies of the FMS etc...

This isn't going to solve the problem completely, however it is a step in the right direction.
There are numerous guys who (through flow through agreements), are needing 100hours of IOE on the mainline equipment.
I can also cite several examples from my initial 121 class of guys who had double the total time I did, yet still couldn't pass.
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What????

Any 135 guy that would get totally lost in a 121 environment has no place being in 135 and that is the fault of the shady 135 company. I am leaps and bounds above the 121 captains who don't have 135 experience where they have only flown in the south and have never seen ice or tempt fate with a big storm (I am saying you need to learn no go from the 135 exp and not punching through in 121), also I will have over 1000 121 PIC and then when the rule hits I will have to sit right seat to learn off a guy who flew a jet above the weather and thinks he is above all others. We could argue this till sometime in December 2012 but my one opinion is 135 should be held to the same as 121 and if the pilots aren't up to speed they shouldn't be flying 135 either and the 1000 should include all 121 flying and most if not all 135. Yes I flew 135 and am now PIC 121 for a Turboprop operator I did not want to take the low pay so I took the route of livable wages don't punish me. Every RJ operator out there does not offer a livable wage from day one (at least more than the people I buy my burger from in the airport) that is my opinion so rip me apart but pay more and I would have went that route.
 
skydisaster said:
IMHO, in the Piston/Turboprop world, the ATP rating has been used for several years to narrow down applicants in an oversupplied job market. Over time, I believe this will self correct, and these positions will be filled by commercial certificate holders. In the short term, I would want to be on the ATP holding side of the camp.
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Scheduled 135 actually requires an ATP, regardless of aircraft type.
 
Also of note, is not every 121 operator flies turbo-fans or for that matter even turbine anything. Cape air obviously flies 402s. You don't need 1000 hours of 121 or large jet experience to fly a 402.
Everet's operates DC-6's 121... those guys need 1000 hours in an rj to do that?
 
dasleben said:
Scheduled 135 actually requires an ATP, regardless of aircraft type.
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I realize that. I am sorry that I was vague. The term 135 has been thrown around a lot on this thread. Scheduled vs on demand, jets vs props all change the rules. I have a couple thousand hours of 135/91k, and none of my time actually required an ATP.
 
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