Everything I've wanted to know about ATC. (But have been to afraid to ask.)

cmill

cmill

Cold Ass Honky
Theres certain things that ive wondered if I over think or if the guy on the other end, is really doing me a solid, or vice versa.

For example: Can you guys tell if a plane is BS'ing mins? Do you hear a familiar call sign and give them "special treatment," as in letting them do things that you normally wouldn't let another aircraft do?

I guess in short, is there a sense that "this guy knows what he's doing, and we'll give him more leeway?"
 
cmill said:
Theres certain things that ive wondered if I over think or if the guy on the other end, is really doing me a solid, or vice versa.

For example: 1) Can you guys tell if a plane is BS'ing mins? 2) Do you hear a familiar call sign and give them "special treatment," as in letting them do things that you normally wouldn't let another aircraft do?

I guess in short, is there a sense that "this guy knows what he's doing, and we'll give him more leeway?"
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1) If you are talking IAP mins or VMC mins, usually yes, generally we don't care, you fly the plane and make those decisions we'll keep you separated. Only exception being where we aren't allowed to do something, like provide VFR service to a towered IMC airport.

2) Yes, generally because I know it is a give/take world, if I can do favors for a pilot I know will have the opportunity to reciprocate by helping me out later I will.
Also we have some pretty busy satellites and timely cancellation is important so the tie goes to the pilot who is a regular and knows the game, not the transient who may screw me by calling flight service to cancel even if I spell out the procedure Barney style. (Flight Service will usually at some point in the following week of a cancellation.)
 
my favorite pilots were the guys/gals that flew those night cargo flights single pilot in some of the worst equipped crappy old airplains in some of the worst weather low and slow. i busted my nutts to do what ever i could to help those folks out. as for you button pushing flight level types............

OG
 
Definately tend to end up "favouring" certain operators, callsigns.

We have some "regulars" around here, that over the years have helped me out, so I go out of my way to help them out when I can, even went so far as an IFR Center controller to call a ground handler at a diversion airport so they'd have service when they arrived.

Even certain airlines have tendancys, some will always bust their balls to help you out, climb/descend quickly, answer on the first call... others you have to call 3-4 times almost every time you call, are lazy in their climbs/descents because company said so, and inundating us with requests and turbulence reports.

I will agree with the cargo flights being easier to get along with usually:

One lowly midnight:

"Hey Center is XXX where you guys are located"

"Sure is, we will wave when you're on the way by"

*Time passes, plane flies overhead*

"Hey Center... uhh we see you waving, geez could you use more than one finger??"
 
In my limited experience, I have found certain carriers are more reliable than others when it comes to truthfully reporting capabilities and fulfilling duties such as remembering to report level or back on route (I am a non-radar controller, these things are extremely important to my ability to form and execute a good plan, and decreasing my workload). In turn, I am more likely to go out of my way to accommodate the carriers that help me out on a regular basis.

Me: XXX123 (at flight level 370) say when able flight level 390
XXX123: unable F390
Me: XXX123 descend and maintain flight level 350 due to traffic
XXX123: we can now accept flight level 390
Me: XXX123 flight level 390 no longer available, descend and maintain flight level 350

same carrier, obviously deviating (aircraft is ADS, thus automatically reporting its position without pilot action)

Me: XXX123 cleared to deviate 20 miles right of course
XXX123: unable
Me: !!! (looking for nearest baby to punch)

Now, all that being said, it is my job to provide good service to all aircraft and above all to be safe, but if I am busy and an aircraft from that carrier is stuck at F330 and is requesting F370, rerouting that aircraft to get a better altitude will be very low on the priorities list.
 
We aren't the police. We expect you to know the rules, and as long as it's legal for me to give you an approach clearance, I will. I work in a center, and the weather I get is updated hourly. It's possible what you are actually flying in is different than what's reported, especially if it's been a while since I've received an update. Since I'm not even located anywhere near the airport you are landing at, I have no idea if you bust mins or not. Sometimes I might suspect, but I'm not the police. I don't know how this differs in a terminal environment, but that's my point of view.

We definitely will help out when we can. Sometimes it's a certain carrier, but often it depends on aircraft type. If I have miles in trail spacing, and have a 747, 757, and 767, I will do everything possible to put the 4 first and the 5 last, to keep speeds as close to normal as possible. Unfortunately, this isn't always possible. And yes, like Canadian ATC said, certain carriers are always asking for ride reports and always seem to be in at least light chop looking for a better ride, even when every other carrier that flew through the same area at the same altitude both before and after have reported it smooth. As a controller, that gets very annoying. As a passenger, it must be a great airline to ride on.
 
The coolest thing a controller ever did for me to date was flying with a student VFR in a slow cadet from KTLH back to KVRB, after leaving KTLH I was asked to reach out to a plane on an incorrect frequency ATC supplied, and get them on the right one. I did it quick and smooth and mysteriously I was treated like royalty and given direct all the way home by every controller, even over the Orlando Bravo airspace. I grinned like a kid all the way home. Made my day for two reasons, I always wanted to fly directly over Orlando (which they never did in 3 yrs on the IP line), and I loved having a chance to do control a specific favor for once! Felt good!
 
Bandit_Driver said:
My personal favorite is when the RVR is just below mins for the approach. Approach asks what mins we need for the approach and suddenly we hear...."RVR out of service, tower visibilty 1/2 mile", followed by the approach clearance.
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When i was assigned to South Korea one day, I was making a fuel/WX divert into RKNW/K-46, and approach was calling 600/1.5 in rain/fog. Switching to the ROKAF PAR final controller, I get talked down to DH, only to see nothing and go missed, back around the radar pattern. Re-confirming the WX, it's calling 600/1.5 again (PAR mins 100-1/4). Come back around again, down the chute, and go missed. After two more laps around the pattern (and no where else to go), I finally grab a small break in the WX allowing me to pick up the airfield perimeter road and defenses below and slightly ahead (good enough for govt work regards airfield environment), and land. Stuck there for a while, I head to the ROKAF tower to talk to their SOF, and ask the tower how they have 1.5sm when I can't even see the other side of the runway? Tower says (korean accent) "I see 3/4 mile that way, 3/4 mile that way....visibility 1.5 mile". Of course, none of their home-station planes are flying either.

The TF was calling for 1.5 apparently, and the ROK (enlisted) observers apparently don't observe anything less that what the ROK (officer) forecaster forecasted, regardless of whats actually showing outside.
 
the A-10 guys at RAF Bentwaters had a trick they would use when the RVRs were low during the morning sortie launch. the pilot with the lowest RVR take off mins would park the AC next to the RVR sensor and run up the motors till the RVR came up , we would then launch all the Hi Min guys than after they went the low min guy would launch .this was done with the full approval of the SOF. worked like a charm boy i miss the good old days but i wouldnt try it with todays anul USAF.
 
I've had that done for me, and done it for others on the civilian side. Seems to work a lot better in a jet...and nope, nothing illegal about it! (whistles and stares at ceiling).
 
Heard at ANC one day:

Tower: Giant XXXXX, Cleared for take off rwy 32, RVR 500.

Giant XXXX: Unable, wx below mins.

Tower: What do you need?

Giant XXXX: 600

Tower: Giant XXXX, cleared for take off rwy 32, RVR 600.

And a question: if I'm visiting several non towered non radar airports regularly on my run, is it helpful for you guys if I cancel 10-15 miles out if the wx is good? And on a related note, yesterday going into another non radar airport I was instructed to hold for another aircraft on approach. He was definitely getting there ahead of me so I just canceled and the traffic and I worked it out on advisory. Again, helpful or not?
 
MikeD said:
When i was assigned to South Korea one day, I was making a fuel/WX divert into RKNW/K-46, and approach was calling 600/1.5 in rain/fog. Switching to the ROKAF PAR final controller, I get talked down to DH, only to see nothing and go missed, back around the radar pattern. Re-confirming the WX, it's calling 600/1.5 again (PAR mins 100-1/4). Come back around again, down the chute, and go missed. After two more laps around the pattern (and no where else to go), I finally grab a small break in the WX allowing me to pick up the airfield perimeter road and defenses below and slightly ahead (good enough for govt work regards airfield environment), and land. Stuck there for a while, I head to the ROKAF tower to talk to their SOF, and ask the tower how they have 1.5sm when I can't even see the other side of the runway? Tower says (korean accent) "I see 3/4 mile that way, 3/4 mile that way....visibility 1.5 mile". Of course, none of their home-station planes are flying either.

The TF was calling for 1.5 apparently, and the ROK (enlisted) observers apparently don't observe anything less that what the ROK (officer) forecaster forecasted, regardless of whats actually showing outside.
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Ouch that sucks. Too bad you didn't have an ILS like we usually do. It would have been a no brainer. I hate PAR and ASR's.


queeno said:
the A-10 guys at RAF Bentwaters had a trick they would use when the RVRs were low during the morning sortie launch. the pilot with the lowest RVR take off mins would park the AC next to the RVR sensor and run up the motors till the RVR came up , we would then launch all the Hi Min guys than after they went the low min guy would launch .this was done with the full approval of the SOF. worked like a charm boy i miss the good old days but i wouldnt try it with todays anul USAF.
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I've seen Fed Ex and UPS do that on their taxi outs in low RVR conditions. NWA did that all the time in the AZO in low vis. They'd point the tail at the RVR and run up the engines and improve the RVR.


TallFlyer said:
Heard at ANC one day:

Tower: Giant XXXXX, Cleared for take off rwy 32, RVR 500.

Giant XXXX: Unable, wx below mins.

Tower: What do you need?

Giant XXXX: 600

Tower: Giant XXXX, cleared for take off rwy 32, RVR 600.

And a question: if I'm visiting several non towered non radar airports regularly on my run, is it helpful for you guys if I cancel 10-15 miles out if the wx is good? And on a related note, yesterday going into another non radar airport I was instructed to hold for another aircraft on approach. He was definitely getting there ahead of me so I just canceled and the traffic and I worked it out on advisory. Again, helpful or not?
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Non-towered it works pretty good. I had it not work out well for the other guy at a towered airprot with parallel runway. It was VMC and I was on the visual. He cancelled as was cleared to land on the parallel. Town then tells me do no pass him on final. To which I responed unable as I was already at my slowest approach speed and running over the turboprob who thru the anchor out. The tower breaks VFR guy off the final. The idiot has the never to berate me on tower freq on how his is flying a Pilatus and he knows I could have slowed down. He looked like a total DB to everyone on freq.
 
TallFlyer said:
And a question: if I'm visiting several non towered non radar airports regularly on my run, is it helpful for you guys if I cancel 10-15 miles out if the wx is good? And on a related note, yesterday going into another non radar airport I was instructed to hold for another aircraft on approach. He was definitely getting there ahead of me so I just canceled and the traffic and I worked it out on advisory. Again, helpful or not?
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For me, in the Center environment, any airports I clear planes into and out of are treated as one-in, one-out. If you are the only plane looking to take off or land, it doesn't make any difference when you cancel. But, if there are more behind you, I can't give the next one a clearance until after you cancel, so then it would help to get your cancellation as soon as possible. My guess is that's why you were told to hold at the airport yesterday, so canceling early was probably easiest, certainly for you.
 
Basically listen to what's going on. If you're #anything (even 1) for the approach, cancel as soon as practical. We all thank you.
 
Is there such a rule that says that if one airplane is rolling out and taxiing down to a turnoff after landing that all that is required is 3000' seperation between that guy and the landing aircraft?
 
dvtpilot said:
Is there such a rule that says that if one airplane is rolling out and taxiing down to a turnoff after landing that all that is required is 3000' seperation between that guy and the landing aircraft?
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That's a function of how big the various aircraft are.
 
dvtpilot said:
Is there such a rule that says that if one airplane is rolling out and taxiing down to a turnoff after landing that all that is required is 3000' seperation between that guy and the landing aircraft?
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Found in FAA Order 7110.65, the "ATC Bible." http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/atc/atc0309.html#atc0309.html.4

Departures:

3-9-6. SAME RUNWAY SEPARATION
Separate a departing aircraft from a preceding departing or arriving aircraft using the same runway by ensuring that it does not begin takeoff roll until:
a. The other aircraft has departed and crossed the runway end or turned to avert any conflict. (See FIG 3-9-1.) If you can determine distances by reference to suitable landmarks, the other aircraft needs only be airborne if the following minimum distance exists between aircraft: (See FIG 3-9-2.)
1. When only Category I aircraft are involved- 3,000 feet.
2. When a Category I aircraft is preceded by a Category II aircraft- 3,000 feet.
3. When either the succeeding or both are Category II aircraft- 4,500 feet.
4. When either is a Category III aircraft- 6,000 feet.
5. When the succeeding aircraft is a helicopter, visual separation may be applied in lieu of using distance minima.
FIG 3-9-1
Same Runway Separation
[View 1]
atc0309_Auto8.png

FIG 3-9-2
Same Runway Separation
[View 2]
atc0309_Auto7.png

NOTE-
Aircraft same runway separation (SRS) categories are specified in Appendices A, B, and C and based upon the following definitions:

CATEGORY I- small aircraft weighing 12,500 lbs. or less, with a single propeller driven engine, and all helicopters.

CATEGORY II- small aircraft weighing 12,500 lbs. or less, with propeller driven twin-engines.

CATEGORY III- all other aircraft.
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Arrivals:

3-10-3. SAME RUNWAY SEPARATION
a. Separate an arriving aircraft from another aircraft using the same runway by ensuring that the arriving aircraft does not cross the landing threshold until one of the following conditions exists or unless authorized in para 3-10-10, Altitude Restricted Low Approach.
1. The other aircraft has landed and is clear of the runway. (See FIG 3-10-1.) Between sunrise and sunset, if you can determine distances by reference to suitable landmarks and the other aircraft has landed, it need not be clear of the runway if the following minimum distance from the landing threshold exists:
REFERENCE-
P/CG Term- Clear of the Runway.
FIG 3-10-1
Same Runway Separation
atc0310_At%20AnchorD.png

(a) When a Category I aircraft is landing behind a Category I or II- 3,000 feet.
(See FIG 3-10-2.)
FIG 3-10-2
Same Runway Separation
atc0310_At%20AnchorC.png

(b) When a Category II aircraft is landing behind a Category I or II- 4,500 feet.(See FIG 3-10-3.)
FIG 3-10-3
Same Runway Separation
atc0310_At%20AnchorB.png

2. The other aircraft has departed and crossed the runway end. (See FIG 3-10-4). If you can determine distances by reference to suitable landmarks and the other aircraft is airborne, it need not have crossed the runway end if the following minimum distance from the landing threshold exists:
(a) Category I aircraft landing behind Category I or II- 3,000 feet.
(b) Category II aircraft landing behind Category I or II- 4,500 feet.
(c) When either is a category III aircraft- 6,000 feet. (See FIG 3-10-5.)
FIG 3-10-4
Same Runway Separation
atc0310_Auto1.png

FIG 3-10-5
Same Runway Separation
atc0310_Auto0.png

3. When the succeeding aircraft is a helicopter, visual separation may be applied in lieu of using distance minima.
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