Even pilot blames JetBlue for 7 hours of tarmac time.....

Re: Even pilot blames JetBlue for 7 hours of tarmac time....

Doug Taylor said:
There's a lot of truth to this.

There is a lot less "Hey, here's a creative idea to alleviate the situation" and a lot more "Ok, I would do XYZ but I'm going to get my ass suspended, even if it works awesomely" in the airline business.

Here's the problem. The captain has the ultimate authority. But the airport feels they have the ultimate authority. But the dispatcher thinks they have the ultimate authority. But then the TSA thinks they have the ultimate authority. When you come up with a creative idea, the only way to get it done is to give everyone else the idea that they thought it up themselves before anything will happen.

But in the end, they're probably going to hammer the captain because it's politically easier.
Click to expand...

Sadly, you're probably right.

In many ways in todays society, initiative doesn't pay off anymore in terms of legal liability. AT BEST, you might break even. You will very rarely win, normally you lose. Very sad state of affairs.

Airline figuring best thing is to keep pax on plane, maybe least liability.....if they go down stairs to ground rather than a jetway and one slips on ice and breaks a leg, major lawsuit. So nothing gets done.

Airport thinking "we could have crash/rescue go get them, but in the course of that, if one pax slips and falls to the ground and is injured, we're looking at a lawsuit; since we won't be able to legally justifiy a critical emergency". So nothing gets done.

On and on and on. It's what this country, and most industries, have come to.
 
Re: Even pilot blames JetBlue for 7 hours of tarmac time....

After 3 hours or whatever, why couldn't they repo to another airport?
 
scooter2525 said:
After 3 hours or whatever, why couldn't they repo to another airport?
Click to expand...

See, very creative idea.

However, the dispatcher has to be able to justify to his supervisor why he loaded X thousand pounds of fuel and re-dispatched the flight to another airport costing $Y.

Maybe I'm old school but if the FAA gives the captain responsibility, give the captain the authority to make a decision like that and lessen the fear of the carpet dance. That decision would have saved money, time and turned a public relations nightmare into that "Top Gun upper/lower hand slap" that ChasenSFO insists on doing when he drinks.

But the entire airline industry is run by accountants and boards of directors that are afraid of their shareholders -- who buy and sell stock at the drop of a hat and aren't the stakeholders like employees are.
 
Re: Even pilot blames JetBlue for 7 hours of tarmac time....

You would think that after other such PR nightmares a change would be made, but I suppose it's the fight club a+b=no recalls. Guess I should be thankful I got a gig that's cool about PIC decision making.
 
Re: Even pilot blames JetBlue for 7 hours of tarmac time....

scooter2525 said:
After 3 hours or whatever, why couldn't they repo to another airport?
Click to expand...

I honestly have no real idea, but in this case here's my guess: I don't think that would have been possible once the wheels set down at BDL. 2:45 from FLL to EWR, figure holding for 0:45 then a 0:30 diversion to BDL, then 3:00 on the ground = you're already at 07:00 Block for the day and the weather is bad. Add in to that the need to deice when the airport was a mess, the probable need to open the door to get new paperwork and it just isn't a feasible idea anymore.
 
Boris Badenov said:
It's like the "Hometown Airline of NYC" has never seen a flurry. I mean, honestly. If they were an upstart based in Miami, I could maybe see it, but it's JET BLUE. Yeah, guys, it turns out it snows up there. Rather a lot, it turns out. Maybe we should pass the hat and buy someone a window.
Click to expand...

Not a flurry, but a blizzard that dumped 32" and has left much of the Northeast without power. Train service is still out in many areas. BTW, JetBlue was not the only airline with problems. Right now TSA claims they did not stop AAL from off loading pax.
As for departing, there may have been many issues with it. I'm beginning to wonder if some of you have ever been involved in an airline. First off, someplace like Hartford was probably a mess. JetBlue was not the only airline that diverted there. It is not a huge airport so they may well have run into gridlock. You need to get dispatched- someone needs to print out the dispatch and get it to the airplane. No power in the terminal so I'm not sure how they dispatch. You then need your fuel. Again, I don't know how easily this could have been done that day at Hartford given the weather and possible ramp congestion and how the fuel trucks were prepared or not prepared to deal with contaminated surfaces. You then need de-ice.... if a de-ice pad is even open. Again, this is the city's responsibility since they run the airport. You then must make your way to the de-ice pad... if congestion permits. Then make it from the de-ice pad to take off before your holdover time expires. Heck, I remember a day so bad at a major airport that I tried three times to get de-iced and take off. Each time I exceeded my hold over time and the airplane was contaminated so I had to return. I finally gave up and tried to return to the gate but there were no gates free. So I waited for hours while the FO and I played "I Spy". Then after all of this you need to get ATC to let you depart. As they are busy making aircraft hold and divert this may not be a given. Again, I really wonder if some of you have actually thought this through.
As for where to divert, it was very reasonable to expect Hartford to be a good place to divert. Weather was obviously above approach minimums. The airline services that city. It is close to where the pax want to go so if you can get them off the airplane they can possibly get to their destination. It is very easy with 20/20 hind site to throw stones at JetBlue for going there, but I bet any one of us would have made that decision. I've seen this kind of overwhelming situation happen to smaller airline service airports when weather knocks out a class B airport.
Again, I don't know the conditions at Hartford that day, but having experienced things like this I can imagine. No gates. No power to operate the gates. Possible lack of people who can drive tugs due to the weather. Hazardous conditions for driving the tugs and moving airplanes. Grid lock on the ramp as ATC keeps bringing in airplanes even though there is no room for them on the ramp (I remember KATL shut down once when congestion became so bad that an airplane landed behind me and could not leave the runway- there was no more room). Let's give a few days for the facts to come out before shouting "Off with her head!". It's like some of you view this as a lottery. Someone gets free money from JetBlue. It does not matter what the facts are.
 
Re: Even pilot blames JetBlue for 7 hours of tarmac time....

I would just complain of chest pain, radiating to my jaw, shoulder and down my left arm - when I am off the plane my pain will subside, and I will refuse medical attention. Pain is a subjective experience, no one can prove it wasn't there.
 
Re: Even pilot blames JetBlue for 7 hours of tarmac time....

Blackhawk said:
someone needs to print out the dispatch and get it to the airplane. No power in the terminal so I'm not sure how they dispatch.
Click to expand...
Really? Write it on wallpaper that was peeling off the walls?
 
Re: Even pilot blames JetBlue for 7 hours of tarmac time....

Blackhawk said:
Part 121? Really??? Your ticket would not be worth the plastic it is printed on.
Click to expand...

ACARS w/printer... not quite "wallpaper", but more than acceptable as long as your Ops Specs and FOM allow digital signing.
 
Re: Even pilot blames JetBlue for 7 hours of tarmac time....

Well, this isn't popular, but:

It's the passengers fault. This airline is the poster child for long airplane confinements. This is not the first time that this has happened. If the passengers chose a means of transportation based off of any other factors than what the cheapest price would be, this airline might not have been the answer. There is a history of this..
 
Re: Even pilot blames JetBlue for 7 hours of tarmac time....

ljg said:
You can point fingers everywhere, but after lessons learned from JFK in 2007, JetBlue should have taken better care of their customers. Just my opinion.
Click to expand...

Agreed, there is blame to a lot of parties here but the AIRLINE accepted responsibility for the passengers. They must bear the full load of this one. The airport got "stuck" with the diversion and should have a little blame especially if they didn't do what they could to help.

The JetBlue crew should have used a slide if that was ALL they had to get people off the plane. SEVEN hours? Ridiculous!
 
dustoff17 said:
Agreed, there is blame to a lot of parties here but the AIRLINE accepted responsibility for the passengers. They must bear the full load of this one. The airport got "stuck" with the diversion and should have a little blame especially if they didn't do what they could to help.

The JetBlue crew should have used a slide if that was ALL they had to get people off the plane. SEVEN hours? Ridiculous!
Click to expand...

If they had used the slide to evacuate the airplane in a driving snow storm with no idea on where the pax would go or how they might be dressed (they had come from Florida), they would have put the safety of the pax at risk and would rightfully be facing enforcement action. Even in good conditions it is not unusual for people to get hurt on the slide. Could have been a fiasco. Do you people really think before you post?
 
cencal83406 said:
ACARS w/printer... not quite "wallpaper", but more than acceptable as long as your Ops Specs and FOM allow digital signing.
Click to expand...

If... don't know if JetBlue can do it. Even then, that is only one of the many hurdles I mentioned to getting an airplane off of Hartford. Could not have been that easy as AAL could not get their international flight off the ground.
 
Re: Even pilot blames JetBlue for 7 hours of tarmac time....

Blackhawk said:
Instead of saying "ready, fire" let's take the intermediate step of actually aiming and looking at who is to blame in this case. Is the city of Hartford to blame (gee, knowing Hartford that would be a real shock)? Is JetBlue to blame? Or is there nothing anyone could have done other than dumping passengers onto a ramp during a blizzard that left much of the Northeast without power? As for popping the emergency exits... this was not some warm day in Phoenix, this was a cold freak blizzard in Connecticut. Not sure how that would have worked out, but probably not well.
Click to expand...

I am guessing no as the only thing Hartford has to do with the airport is the name. The City of Hartford has as much to do with the operation of the airport in Windsor Locks as Washington DC does with the operation of BWI.

Only thing else I have to comment on this is, I am going with the pilot who stated that the airport was more helpful than the company was.
 
Re: Even pilot blames JetBlue for 7 hours of tarmac time....

boondr said:
Only thing else I have to comment on this is, I am going with the pilot who stated that the airport was more helpful than the company was.
Click to expand...

Precisely.

It was SEVEN HOURS. At what point isn't it the airline's responsibility—seven DAYS, perhaps? Maybe we'd like to make excuses up to seven WEEKS!

And before anyone says those examples are ridiculous, so too was seven hours if you were on that aircraft.
 
Re: Even pilot blames JetBlue for 7 hours of tarmac time....

I think a lot of folks in this thread have never been up front when stuff like this is actually happening. I've never hit 3 hours before, but I've come within a few minutes of it, and that was just due to airport congestion from a thunderstorm. If you're boxed in on both ends by other aircraft and there's nowhere to go, you can be up a creek real fast regarding this stuff. So all the folks that are advocating "finding a way" to get the people off the plane haven't actually been stuck in the hot seat when things are going south in a situation like this. It's great to monday morning quarterback, and it's even better to do it when you've never been in this situation up front, but it's not very useful. So a few considerations:

-If you do an evac, people are going to get hurt. On my plane, there's no slide, and it's 5' down to the ground from the main cabin door. If you just start launching people onto an icy ramp, you're going to get somebody hurt.

-If the folks are uncomfortable and pissed off, but you follow the guidance in your FOM, keep the people on the plane and do what your company tells you to do now that you're on the ground, you'll keep your job, and the potential for disaster is smaller. We're not talking about people being stuck in a prison camp, we're talking about an airplane. Nobody is going to freeze to death inside the plane, and nobody is going to break any bones.

-If you look at this from a cost/benefit standpoint, that $3 million fine that the airline MAY get, it's going to be less than launching the folks onto the ramp if somebody gets hurt. Now is this a liability analysis? Yes, of course it is, as pilots, that's what we're paid to do. We do it with every flight, and the approach should be no different here. We're constantly analyzing if the risk that we're taking in a given phase of flight is worth it to complete the mission, and this is no different.
 
Re: Even pilot blames JetBlue for 7 hours of tarmac time....

jtrain609 said:
I think a lot of folks in this thread have never been up front when stuff like this is actually happening. I've never hit 3 hours before, but I've come within a few minutes of it, and that was just due to airport congestion from a thunderstorm. If you're boxed in on both ends by other aircraft and there's nowhere to go, you can be up a creek real fast regarding this stuff. So all the folks that are advocating "finding a way" to get the people off the plane haven't actually been stuck in the hot seat when things are going south in a situation like this. It's great to monday morning quarterback, and it's even better to do it when you've never been in this situation up front, but it's not very useful. So a few considerations:

-If you do an evac, people are going to get hurt. On my plane, there's no slide, and it's 5' down to the ground from the main cabin door. If you just start launching people onto an icy ramp, you're going to get somebody hurt.

-If the folks are uncomfortable and pissed off, but you follow the guidance in your FOM, keep the people on the plane and do what your company tells you to do now that you're on the ground, you'll keep your job, and the potential for disaster is smaller. We're not talking about people being stuck in a prison camp, we're talking about an airplane. Nobody is going to freeze to death inside the plane, and nobody is going to break any bones.

-If you look at this from a cost/benefit standpoint, that $3 million fine that the airline MAY get, it's going to be less than launching the folks onto the ramp if somebody gets hurt. Now is this a liability analysis? Yes, of course it is, as pilots, that's what we're paid to do. We do it with every flight, and the approach should be no different here. We're constantly analyzing if the risk that we're taking in a given phase of flight is worth it to complete the mission, and this is no different.
Click to expand...

True. Whether we like it or not, as I've said, liability is a big factor in decisions to do something or do nothing. Least amount of potential liability is what it'll generally come down to.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top