Even pilot blames JetBlue for 7 hours of tarmac time.....

[jtrain609]

Re: Even pilot blames JetBlue for 7 hours of tarmac time....

True. Whether we like it or not, as I've said, liability is a big factor in decisions to do something or do nothing. Least amount of potential liability is what it'll generally come down to.

Which, as I see things, is how it should be. We're tasked with flying the public, who is trusting us to make good, reasonable and safe decisions that maximize safety first, and then efficiency. Could I land 90% of the time from an stabilized approach? Of course, I'm not a hack of a pilot. Will touching down at ref + 30 cause me to roll off the end of the runway with 10,000'? Not in my plane. But regardless, just because we can likely create a positive outcome in these situations, we don't do these things because they reduce safety below an acceptable level for the traveling public.

Now to juxtapose that against me in a 172, or me in a different type mission, then those risks may not reduce the acceptable level of safety below whatever is considered acceptable in those segments of the industry. But with part 121 flying, it's simply not reasonable.

 

[BobDDuck]

Re: Even pilot blames JetBlue for 7 hours of tarmac time....

Really? Write it on wallpaper that was peeling off the walls?

Or you know they could just sent it to the ACARS printer.

 

[boondr]

Re: Even pilot blames JetBlue for 7 hours of tarmac time....

I think a lot of folks in this thread have never been up front when stuff like this is actually happening. I've never hit 3 hours before, but I've come within a few minutes of it, and that was just due to airport congestion from a thunderstorm. If you're boxed in on both ends by other aircraft and there's nowhere to go, you can be up a creek real fast regarding this stuff. So all the folks that are advocating "finding a way" to get the people off the plane haven't actually been stuck in the hot seat when things are going south in a situation like this. It's great to monday morning quarterback, and it's even better to do it when you've never been in this situation up front, but it's not very useful. So a few considerations:

-If you do an evac, people are going to get hurt. On my plane, there's no slide, and it's 5' down to the ground from the main cabin door. If you just start launching people onto an icy ramp, you're going to get somebody hurt.

-If the folks are uncomfortable and pissed off, but you follow the guidance in your FOM, keep the people on the plane and do what your company tells you to do now that you're on the ground, you'll keep your job, and the potential for disaster is smaller. We're not talking about people being stuck in a prison camp, we're talking about an airplane. Nobody is going to freeze to death inside the plane, and nobody is going to break any bones.

-If you look at this from a cost/benefit standpoint, that $3 million fine that the airline MAY get, it's going to be less than launching the folks onto the ramp if somebody gets hurt. Now is this a liability analysis? Yes, of course it is, as pilots, that's what we're paid to do. We do it with every flight, and the approach should be no different here. We're constantly analyzing if the risk that we're taking in a given phase of flight is worth it to complete the mission, and this is no different.

That's why the COMPANY should be responsible for coming up with a solution, I don't think anyone here is suggesting that the PIC is or should be responsible for resolving a situation like this.

 

[loubetti]

Re: Even pilot blames JetBlue for 7 hours of tarmac time....

Um... uh... geez, I'm not an airline pilot. Granted, Jet Blue has a history of this stuff, but right now I have my girl friend's house without power for maybe a week due to this storm in northern NJ.

Bradley is a little airport, and it cannot accommodate everything that comes in. You also have the idiots at TSA and Customs who have not a clue, and could not care less about anyone on the plane. I mean, it's not like they have a clue and could care. They only care about their wages and benefits.

You end up at Bradley under these circumstances!. They can't handle it.

You're not going to pop the slides and let people off on the ramp either, Cmon! Let's get real!

I guess they should have landed at SWF; even worse.

So, you land at a little airport with minimal facilities, and then you have to deal with government functionaries, who could not care less about you. What do you expect?

Don't you folks understand? You're dealing with government functionaries, who do not give a crap about you. They do not care if you are on a plane for seven hours. They think you are a terrorist!

I'm surprised they even got these folks off the planes without a body cavity search! As soon as you understand that you are not dealing with the best and the brightest, you will understand that it had nothing to do with the pilots or the company, it has to do with the with the stupidity of security at our airports!

Sorry, trash me all you want, but I will not blame the JB pilots, or any pilots for this.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Re: Even pilot blames JetBlue for 7 hours of tarmac time....

If they had used the slide to evacuate the airplane in a driving snow storm with no idea on where the pax would go or how they might be dressed (they had come from Florida), they would have put the safety of the pax at risk and would rightfully be facing enforcement action. Even in good conditions it is not unusual for people to get hurt on the slide. Could have been a fiasco. Do you people really think before you post?

(1) You're right. What's worse, the aircraft could have been stuck there as a result. I wouldn't imagine they have the means to repack and service a slide in Hartford, or at least I can't imagine it's a frequent occurrence there or anywhere in the JBU system.
(2) Easy does it

 

[RDoug]

Re: Even pilot blames JetBlue for 7 hours of tarmac time....

Well, speaking from personal experience (I was working Ground Control during 9/11), all I can say is we had diverted aircraft parked EVERYWHERE, well beyond ANYTHING KELP was designed to handle. Passengers were deplaned within minutes, not hours, and bused to the terminal.

But, then, none of the diverted aircraft were JetBlue, either.

 

[Crism]

Re: Even pilot blames JetBlue for 7 hours of tarmac time....

Train, from a 121 standpoint (and someone who understands the situation), you're 100% correct.

Now I'll pose this question: How does a crew rectify a situation like this?

I disagree that BDL is a "small" airport. I've been there. There's terminals, gate space, ground equipment, and people to operate it all.

My rectify idea? For each alternate airport listed in the Ops Specs, have services available and some sort of plan of action to get the passengers into a terminal.

 

[pullup]

Heck, you would probably have to go all the way north to Buffalo this past weekend to have found a clear airport of any fair size.

It was clear blue skies and decent temperature here while snowmageddon was happening. I could have bought anyone who diverted some real wings, blue cheese, and beer.

 

[Pilotforhire587]

Re: Even pilot blames JetBlue for 7 hours of tarmac time....

So who gets the $27,000?

 

[boondr]

Re: Even pilot blames JetBlue for 7 hours of tarmac time....

So who gets the $27,000?

Hopefully me

 

[BobDDuck]

Re: Even pilot blames JetBlue for 7 hours of tarmac time....

But, then, none of the diverted aircraft were JetBlue, either.

And that's something nobody has mentioned either. From everything I know and have seen at gate areas, B6 runs a very lean operation.

I disagree that BDL is a "small" airport. I've been there. There's terminals, gate space, ground equipment, and people to operate it all.

Exactly. There is TONS of room at that airport. Sure, the international "gate" is very small (just a little building with a jetway) but for domestic ops there is lots of ramp space, gates and stairs. If the airport was having power problems (which it sounds like they were) then some of that stuff may not have been available but it seems that none of the other diverts that went into there (and I know that my parent company's brand alone sent in 5) had problems like this.

And to go way back in the thread about printing releases... we can actually get our release on scrap paper, dictated to us over the phone from Dispatch, as long as we have their verbal initials and Z time. So, used wallpaper would actually work for us.

 

[Blackhawk]

Re: Even pilot blames JetBlue for 7 hours of tarmac time....

Train, from a 121 standpoint (and someone who understands the situation), you're 100% correct.

Now I'll pose this question: How does a crew rectify a situation like this?

I disagree that BDL is a "small" airport. I've been there. There's terminals, gate space, ground equipment, and people to operate it all.

My rectify idea? For each alternate airport listed in the Ops Specs, have services available and some sort of plan of action to get the passengers into a terminal.

Compared to most class B airports it is small. I've seen these class B airports get so bad that grid lock set in. Someplace like BDL could be overwhelmed very easily with traffic diverting there, especially considering the weather.

 

[Blackhawk]

Re: Even pilot blames JetBlue for 7 hours of tarmac time....

Well, speaking from personal experience (I was working Ground Control during 9/11), all I can say is we had diverted aircraft parked EVERYWHERE, well beyond ANYTHING KELP was designed to handle. Passengers were deplaned within minutes, not hours, and bused to the terminal.

But, then, none of the diverted aircraft were JetBlue, either.

Seriously?? I lived in El Paso when they had 1/2" of snow and the place shut down. Heck, last year the city came to a halt, electricity went out and the water system failed when the temperature dropped down to 20 degrees for a few days. Some people were without water and power for over a week. If they had 32" of snow in El Paso the airport would be shut down and no one would be parked. People would probably die on the airplanes.

 

[RDoug]

Re: Even pilot blames JetBlue for 7 hours of tarmac time....

Seriously?? I lived in El Paso when they had 1/2" of snow and the place shut down. Heck, last year the city came to a halt, electricity went out and the water system failed when the temperature dropped down to 20 degrees for a few days. Some people were without water and power for over a week. If they had 32" of snow in El Paso the airport would be shut down and no one would be parked. People would probably die on the airplanes.

First, the temperatures dropped well below 20°, dropping at one point down to -1°. Second, the temperature didn't get much above 20° for four straight days. Third, thank you for making my point—nobody at El Paso sat on the ramp with passengers for even one hour, let alone seven, and nobody in the past has done so even when the airport was shut down for snow.

But, then again, JetBlue doesn't fly into El Paso.

 

[dustoff17]

Re: Even pilot blames JetBlue for 7 hours of tarmac time....

If they had used the slide to evacuate the airplane in a driving snow storm with no idea on where the pax would go or how they might be dressed (they had come from Florida), they would have put the safety of the pax at risk and would rightfully be facing enforcement action. Even in good conditions it is not unusual for people to get hurt on the slide. Could have been a fiasco. Do you people really think before you post?

RELAX Blackhawk! This WAS a Fiasco!!

You're apparently refering to injuries that occur during an emergency evacuation, right? People pushing, screaming, plane on fire, smoke, end of runway, people running all directions, snow all around, long distance to safety, up hill, both ways,etc......

How many pilots and/or flight attendants are injured going down the slide while going through training? I'm guessing very few or OSHA would be putting it in sideways to all the airlines. And why so few? I'm guessing its because they were told HOW to do it safely AND they had plenty of time to approach the slide.

I wasn't there Blackhawk and my guess is that you weren't either so, take a deep breath and read on:

As a scenario only, how about this: Taxi up to the building as close as you can (even if you have to stick the nose in between two planes parked at the gate). Explain to all the passengers how to properly slide down (heck you would have 7 HOURS to cover even the smallest of details!), exit orderly, no bags, one row at a time, have a ground crew at the bottom to help at the slide and another couple of helpers to escort everyone the mere 50 yards into the building, even in a full blown blizzard I could make it 50 yards in a tropical shirt and flip-flops.

OR if you want to take the "drama" approach to which you were referring; open the door, pop the slide, set the plane on fire and scream "GO"! Either way, it's GOTTA be better than sitting on a plane for SEVEN hours!

 

[etflies]

Re: Even pilot blames JetBlue for 7 hours of tarmac time....

Never underestimate the power of the traveling public to do something dumb even when given thorough and precise instruction, then blame you.

 

[jtrain609]

Re: Even pilot blames JetBlue for 7 hours of tarmac time....

RELAX Blackhawk! This WAS a Fiasco!!

You're apparently refering to injuries that occur during an emergency evacuation, right? People pushing, screaming, plane on fire, smoke, end of runway, people running all directions, snow all around, long distance to safety, up hill, both ways,etc......

How many pilots and/or flight attendants are injured going down the slide while going through training? I'm guessing very few or OSHA would be putting it in sideways to all the airlines. And why so few? I'm guessing its because they were told HOW to do it safely AND they had plenty of time to approach the slide.

I wasn't there Blackhawk and my guess is that you weren't either so, take a deep breath and read on:

As a scenario only, how about this: Taxi up to the building as close as you can (even if you have to stick the nose in between two planes parked at the gate). Explain to all the passengers how to properly slide down (heck you would have 7 HOURS to cover even the smallest of details!), exit orderly, no bags, one row at a time, have a ground crew at the bottom to help at the slide and another couple of helpers to escort everyone the mere 50 yards into the building, even in a full blown blizzard I could make it 50 yards in a tropical shirt and flip-flops.

OR if you want to take the "drama" approach to which you were referring; open the door, pop the slide, set the plane on fire and scream "GO"! Either way, it's GOTTA be better than sitting on a plane for SEVEN hours!

This may make post of the year for me, if only for this. I can just see somebody running to the back of the plane with a torch lit screaming "GET THE CRAP OFF ZEE PLANE!!!! NOW!!!!!"

 

[Blackhawk]

RELAX Blackhawk! This WAS a Fiasco!!

You're apparently refering to injuries that occur during an emergency evacuation, right? People pushing, screaming, plane on fire, smoke, end of runway, people running all directions, snow all around, long distance to safety, up hill, both ways,etc......

How many pilots and/or flight attendants are injured going down the slide while going through training? I'm guessing very few or OSHA would be putting it in sideways to all the airlines. And why so few? I'm guessing its because they were told HOW to do it safely AND they had plenty of time to approach the slide.

I wasn't there Blackhawk and my guess is that you weren't either so, take a deep breath and read on:

As a scenario only, how about this: Taxi up to the building as close as you can (even if you have to stick the nose in between two planes parked at the gate). Explain to all the passengers how to properly slide down (heck you would have 7 HOURS to cover even the smallest of details!), exit orderly, no bags, one row at a time, have a ground crew at the bottom to help at the slide and another couple of helpers to escort everyone the mere 50 yards into the building, even in a full blown blizzard I could make it 50 yards in a tropical shirt and flip-flops.

OR if you want to take the "drama" approach to which you were referring; open the door, pop the slide, set the plane on fire and scream "GO"! Either way, it's GOTTA be better than sitting on a plane for SEVEN hours!

I've read some stupid things on this website but this has to be toward the top of my list. Staying on an airplane is a pain, but not a fiasco. Trying to evacuate an airplane full of pax in a driving blizzard is a fiasco and asking for a lawsuit and termination.

 

[cmill]

Re: Even pilot blames JetBlue for 7 hours of tarmac time....

when something like this happens, i try to think what i would have done in that situation. In this case, theres nothing else that could have been done. Jtrain is right. From a 121 stand point, the best outcome are some pissed off pax. Once the pilot asked for police, there was nothing he could have really done other than start the plane and ram it through the terminal.

Not to rip on the pax, but do you go to a two star hotel and expect five star service? You wont get a limo ride to the bag claim for a 300 dollar ticket.

 

[Blackhawk]

First, the temperatures dropped well below 20°, dropping at one point down to -1°. Second, the temperature didn't get much above 20° for four straight days. Third, thank you for making my point--nobody at El Paso sat on the ramp with passengers for even one hour, let alone seven, and nobody in the past has done so even when the airport was shut down for snow.

But, then again, JetBlue doesn't fly into El Paso.

Actually, according to the El Paso electric website it was +1 at the lowest, but averaged 18 during the period. My point is that in spite of delusions you might have a city that can't deal with low temperatures or 1/2 " of snow would be overwhelmed by 32" of snow and being inundated by airplanes at the same time. If you think the El Paso airport could have handled the situation you need to stop partaking of the stuff on the other side of the border. How many snow plows at KELP? I think Mayor Azar bought one. What... two deice trucks with type I deice fluid? When the power goes out the gates are operated... how? Heck, the workers would not even be able to get to the airport as the city would shut down.