Even pilot blames JetBlue for 7 hours of tarmac time.....

Re: Even pilot blames JetBlue for 7 hours of tarmac time....

Cracking down on whom? Should we punish the airlines if the airport does not have the proper facilities to support unusual operations such as this? I don't know all the details, but it sounds as if Hartford Airport got overwhelmed, not JetBlue.

The key here is the number SEVEN, as in SEVEN HOURS. If JetBlue couldn't find a way to deplane those passengers after SEVEN HOURS, then heck yeah they deserve to be fined. SEVEN HOURS constitutes an emergency in my mind (as well as probably most of those passengers) in that sanitation facilities were unavailable and food and water were depleted. If this were another type emergency, if the aircraft were on fire for instance, would SEVEN HOURS to deplane be considered an adequate response?

Of course not.

In an emergency situation, you do what you have to do to get those passengers off the plane. Period. If that means deploying the slides, you do it. What you do NOT do is wait until you have TWO MEDICAL EMERGENCIES before taking action—a paraplegic whose legs were immobilized long enough to constitute danger of thrombosis, and a diabetic who needs food every few hours to control their insulin levels.

Had somebody died, this would very possibly constitute negligent homicide.
 
Re: Even pilot blames JetBlue for 7 hours of tarmac time....

The key here is the number SEVEN, as in SEVEN HOURS. If JetBlue couldn't find a way to deplane those passengers after SEVEN HOURS, then heck yeah they deserve to be fined. SEVEN HOURS constitutes an emergency in my mind (as well as probably most of those passengers) in that sanitation facilities were unavailable and food and water were depleted. If this were another type emergency, if the aircraft were on fire for instance, would SEVEN HOURS to deplane be considered an adequate response?

Of course not.

In an emergency situation, you do what you have to do to get those passengers off the plane. Period. If that means deploying the slides, you do it. What you do NOT do is wait until you have TWO MEDICAL EMERGENCIES before taking action—a paraplegic whose legs were immobilized long enough to constitute danger of thrombosis, and a diabetic who needs food every few hours to control their insulin levels.

Had somebody died, this would very possibly constitute negligent homicide.

Exactly. Who cares if the airport doesn't have an open gate, in 7 hours you could borrow some airstairs and a van.
 
Re: Even pilot blames JetBlue for 7 hours of tarmac time....

The airline needs to plan alternates to take suitable facilities into account. Barring an emergency, airplanes should not be diverting into airports that can't deplane passengers or even fuel the aircraft.
Going to an alternate is not normal. Yes, some things are taken into consideration. You go to an airport with airline service. But if airplanes are being diverted often your airline is not the only one being diverted. Some things the airport is suppose to provide- such as gate space and in some cases (such as Augusta where fuel is not provided by the airline), people who actually know how to fuel an airplane. A tug won't do crap if there is no place to tow an airplane. I have been in situations a number of times where we were stuck and it had absolutely nothing to do with the airline and everything to do with the incompetence of the airport staff. KATL use to be a mess whenever icing conditions hit. Heck, it was so messed up they had the deice pad drain get clogged and deice fluid leaked into the water system. A week after I told my family to stop drinking the water because it tasted like antifreeze (we lived down stream from KATL), the airport authorities finally came out and admitted that deice fluid had leaked into the water system. I have seen absolute grid lock at KATL where the system was so backed up and taxi ways so blocked it took over an hour just to get pushed back. It's easy for the government... which runs the airports... to blame the airlines for their problems. If we pay a landing fee, a handling fee, a fuel tax, plus any number of other taxes that are charged at the airport the money should go toward servicing the airport and ensuring there are adequate facilities, not used as some cash cow. I work at an airport now where everything is run by the city, including the FBO. It's a class C airport, but you pay a landing fee, a ramp fee, plus high fuel costs. The ramp area is coming apart and I've seen aircraft damaged from the FOD; the FBO is a dump- I've flown in and the toilets don't even work and the wall paper is peeling.
Instead of saying "ready, fire" let's take the intermediate step of actually aiming and looking at who is to blame in this case. Is the city of Hartford to blame (gee, knowing Hartford that would be a real shock)? Is JetBlue to blame? Or is there nothing anyone could have done other than dumping passengers onto a ramp during a blizzard that left much of the Northeast without power? As for popping the emergency exits... this was not some warm day in Phoenix, this was a cold freak blizzard in Connecticut. Not sure how that would have worked out, but probably not well.
 
Re: Even pilot blames JetBlue for 7 hours of tarmac time....

Could always just open an overwing for some fresh air without the hassle of the slide deployment. :D
I don't think you can inhibit overwing slide deployment on the 'bus.
 
Re: Even pilot blames JetBlue for 7 hours of tarmac time....

I agree there's probably blame that could go all around, but I would venture in todays litigious society, many "get the job done" decisions that would've been made in times past, were bogged down with thoughts of potential legal liability.
 
Re: Even pilot blames JetBlue for 7 hours of tarmac time....

Wait- so it was a problem with the airport facilities (jetways out of service, lack of equipment for deplaning remote airplanes, loss of power with no apparent back up power), yet it's the airline's fault???

they could have chose an alternate with facilities... its not there is a shortage of airports in the northeast. I think 99% of these "passengers stranded on plane for HOURS" incidents are the airlines fault. just my observation.

hate to play the blame game, but I would be pretty pissed off if I was stuck onboard a plane just sitting on the ramp for hours...
 
Re: Even pilot blames JetBlue for 7 hours of tarmac time....

I don't think you can inhibit overwing slide deployment on the 'bus.

I completely forgot we were talking about the 'Bus. Thats right, even when being opened from outside, the slide will still deploy in normal operations.
 
Re: Even pilot blames JetBlue for 7 hours of tarmac time....

You can point fingers everywhere, but after lessons learned from JFK in 2007, JetBlue should have taken better care of their customers. Just my opinion.
 
Re: Even pilot blames JetBlue for 7 hours of tarmac time....

they could have chose an alternate with facilities... its not there is a shortage of airports in the northeast. I think 99% of these "passengers stranded on plane for HOURS" incidents are the airlines fault. just my observation.

hate to play the blame game, but I would be pretty pissed off if I was stuck onboard a plane just sitting on the ramp for hours...
Really? Which one? The airplane diverted from Newark, so it's a fair guess that LGA, ISP and JFK had issues. Heck, you would probably have to go all the way north to Buffalo this past weekend to have found a clear airport of any fair size. I'm willing to bet that all the major airports within 150 miles of KEWR had ground stops and were closed. My wife was at West Point for a football game and the entire area was a mess- mass transit shut down in many places stranding pax. If you are going to say it please list the airport with the conditions and capability where the airplane could have diverted. Again, I don't know that JetBlue is blameless. But many of the issues listed (such as the gates not having power), are airport issues, not airline issues. It is the airport that should have air stairs available in case such things happen since they are the ones providing the service to the airlines... but I'm willing to bet that Hartford did not have any. I can't remember the last time I saw any that actually were operational and had people who knew how to use them. Heck, even at KATL I saw them, but no one from KATL knew how to use them. If there was not a gate for an airplane without stairs, you were pretty much out of luck.
 
Re: Even pilot blames JetBlue for 7 hours of tarmac time....

JB is an operational disaster whenever the NE WX sours. Things like diverting multiple aircraft to an outstation with limited resources and located directly in the path of the WX they just diverted from dosent surprise me at all.

I worked at a large BlueCity and we would run out of stairs, beltloaders, people, pilots, gates, GPU's, exc. when the schedule was normal.. add in a few diversions or ground stops and it was a nightmare.
 
Re: Even pilot blames JetBlue for 7 hours of tarmac time....

So if my calculations are correct on the $27,000 per passenger and there are 110 on board. That will cost $2,970,000. Ouch.
 
Re: Even pilot blames JetBlue for 7 hours of tarmac time....

Wow. Can't believe there's actually anyone defending this.

1. Did any other airline that night imprison passengers on their aircraft for anything approaching seven hours (American doesn't count; those passengers were ordered to remain on board by U.S. Customs)?

2. Does JetBlue have a past history of doing this?
 
Re: Even pilot blames JetBlue for 7 hours of tarmac time....

No matter how justified, the first pax who opens an exit will forever be on a "list," and have to tell his story when going through security.

"But we were stuck on the ramp for seven hours, and two passengers were having medical problems, and the airline had abandoned us, and they later paid a huge fine, and the charges against me were all dropped, and..."

A guaranteed lifetime of special screening.
 
Re: Even pilot blames JetBlue for 7 hours of tarmac time....

Wow. Can't believe there's actually anyone defending this.

1. Did any other airline that night imprison passengers on their aircraft for anything approaching seven hours (American doesn't count; those passengers were ordered to remain on board by U.S. Customs)?

2. Does JetBlue have a past history of doing this?
I am neither defending them nor vilifying them. I am saying we should get some of the facts before we demand a witch hunt. We should look at the cities that JetBlue serves and see how they are supporting their airports and how they are using their tax revenues. So American gets a pass? Why is that? Because the Federalis were involved rather than just local government? Where was the support by Hartford in this? I'm sure the city bent over backwards to get JetBlue service to their city. If they do so, they should support that service. Yes, ATC seemed to have been talking to the captain, but did Hartford do anything to help? Again, this just sounds like the beginning of a Monty Python skit- "She's a witch! Burn her!" No facts, just emotion.
As for other airlines, they will normally have more gates. Again, I saw this happen to non-Delta airlines at KATL. They had fewer gates, so they sometimes got hosed when weather went... well, I'd say south but it actually went north. Should they have been punished for not having a bunch of extra gates available? Gates are money. More money for gates=less money for pilots. Personally, I'd rather be given the money.
Like Mike wrote, so much of what they might have been done to help was probably tied up in the fear of legal ramifications. Heck, I doubt that the FAA would have been very pleased if they let the pax off the airplane unless all the "i's" were dotted and the "t's" crossed.
Everyone take a deep breath, step away from the crack pipes and wait for the facts come out. Stop acting like Barney Frank and stuttering in feigned indignation. If JetBlue was at fault they should be smacked. If Hartford was at fault we should not smack JetBlue for the failure of the local government to live up to their obligation. If there was nothing anyone could have done, so be it. Crap happens.
 
Re: Even pilot blames JetBlue for 7 hours of tarmac time....

It's like the "Hometown Airline of NYC" has never seen a flurry. I mean, honestly. If they were an upstart based in Miami, I could maybe see it, but it's JET BLUE. Yeah, guys, it turns out it snows up there. Rather a lot, it turns out. Maybe we should pass the hat and buy someone a window.
 
Re: Even pilot blames JetBlue for 7 hours of tarmac time....

All Im saying is that no one will do anything anymore without legal liability on the mind, which usually results in nothing getting done. unfortunately.
 
All Im saying is that no one will do anything anymore without legal liability on the mind, which usually results in nothing getting done. unfortunately.

There's a lot of truth to this.

There is a lot less "Hey, here's a creative idea to alleviate the situation" and a lot more "Ok, I would do XYZ but I'm going to get my ass suspended, even if it works awesomely" in the airline business.

Here's the problem. The captain has the ultimate authority. But the airport feels they have the ultimate authority. But the dispatcher thinks they have the ultimate authority. But then the TSA thinks they have the ultimate authority. When you come up with a creative idea, the only way to get it done is to give everyone else the idea that they thought it up themselves before anything will happen.

But in the end, they're probably going to hammer the captain because it's politically easier.
 
Re: Even pilot blames JetBlue for 7 hours of tarmac time....

I havent heard all the details yet, and there is always something extra in these cases that seem to make them more believable...
However, speaking in general terms, a realistic alternate would have been nice in this circumstance. Im not sure. I was in Montreal and the weather was fine, not to far from all the snow. Yeah its far for an alternate, and youd have to carry more fuel, but BTV or similar wouldve been very doable. Snowmagedenoctober shouldnt have snuck up on any airline this week. BUt again, its always different when it happens to you.
 
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