Emirates A380 Moscow landing incident

[mshunter]

You can still fly transport jets...like, I dunno... a plane....

Nooo? Every time I do that, the other guy looks at me like I have a set of horns or a third friggin eye. And it's only going to get worse with how low upgrade times are becoming at the regionals.

 

[z987k]

Want to reopen the SFO Air Canada debacle, sure.

Taking off of LAX, perhaps, I'll buy your argument. SFO... no.
In a gosh darn Airbus no less, a plane which I'm very familiar with.
I've had my share of "black hole approaches." And will argue, VMC landing to SFO 28's isn't one of them.

You can still fly transport jets...like, I dunno... a plane...

So there I was: one of the last flights I flew the Airbus: Latrobe, PA. I did a no-poop visual traffic pattern, at night, and didn't die. Further, I didn't even set off the eGPWS. Bitching Betté didn't even say a word either.
Am I amazing? I tell my girlfriend that all the time, but I'm really not.
The fancy French jet, flies just like my Stinson.

Automation mismanagement is by far the most common thing I see at our airline. Most people seem to be able to hand fly it fine. Vertical SA, correctly programming and understanding what it'll do next seems to be lost on a lot of people.
I honestly wonder if Airbus didn't get the non moving autothrottle correct. Seems all anyone does in the Boeing is fight them rather than fix the issue, usually because they have no idea what the issue is.

 

[typhoonpilot]

I've never met a former Emirates pilot who had nice things to say about their time at the company(which says a lot given the tax free pay and free housing), but recently I ran into a former Skywest pilot that I knew from my time there who managed to go from EMB-120 captain to 777 F/O in his mid-20s and is now on the A380 about 5 years later. In the 5 minutes we chatted about it, all he talked about was how many hot single flight attendants(unless I am mistaken, they must be single) there are and how his life is essentially a porno and every layover is a party. Granted he's probably 30 and a good looking guy who was non-reving with a different model looking chick whenever I saw him off-duty at SFO, so I guess if that is the life you want while you rack up widebody time, go for it. If you're there to have a good time, not being able to get drunk in Dubai is not a problem, since you're barely home it seems.

Otherwise, given the QOL and the fact they tend to fire pilots for anything that makes the news, doesn't look like a nice place to work unless A380s get your pecker torped.

Meet me then

Emirates was a great job for me, but I joined and rode the wave of growth then left before it got too bad. Never shagged a flight attendant either so that's not the reason I liked it or that it worked for me. I've still got a good few years left in this business, but I'm pretty sure the 11 I had at Emirates will be the most professionally rewarding of my career when I do hit age 65 and get to look back.

That said, the rot has set in at Emirates as I knew it would. All of the foreign airlines that hire expats are essentially the same. As long as they are expat managed and run they tend to be okay. As soon as the locals takeover in the upper management ranks it starts going to sh_it. Happened at Cathay; happened at Singapore; happened at Gulf Air; happening at Emirates. It's a natural cycle. Which is precisely why I told guys who were thinking about going there back in the early to mid-2000s that it was a 10-15 year move, no more than that.

 

[ChasenSFO]

Meet me then

Would love to!

Are things so bad there these days that even seniority isn't much light at the end of the tunnel schedule wise? Pilots at some Asian airlines have told me it is basically a cultural thing where pilots in some countries just expect to be at work on the time and no one really gets nor expects time off anything close to what one gets in the Western world. China Airlines has a crew come cross the Pacific to the US getting in around 1930 and they're back out to Taiwan at 0140 the next morning. When they get in real late, the flight the next night is delayed for crew rest. Nuts that it is the same crew the next day. Seems crazy to me that anyone who has had a taste of QOL would want to spend their career at a place like that.

 

[DE727UPS]

Would love to!

Are things so bad there these days that even seniority isn't much light at the end of the tunnel schedule wise? Pilots at some Asian airlines have told me it is basically a cultural thing where pilots in some countries just expect to be at work on the time and no one really gets nor expects time off anything close to what one gets in the Western world. China Airlines has a crew come cross the Pacific to the US getting in around 1930 and they're back out to Taiwan at 0140 the next morning. When they get in real late, the flight the next night is delayed for crew rest. Nuts that it is the same crew the next day. Seems crazy to me that anyone who has had a taste of QOL would want to spend their career at a place like that.

That's 6:10 rest..... Do they not have to follow FAA rest rules?

 

[ChasenSFO]

That's 6:10 rest..... Do they not have to follow FAA rest rules?

No, they depart at 0140 the NEXT night(technically 2 calendar days due to post-midnight departure). So it is 30 hours rest roughly from block in to block out after a 12.5-14 hour flight in.

 

[Cptnchia]

No, they depart at 0140 the NEXT night(technically 2 calendar days. So it is 30 hours rest roughly from block in to block out after a 12.5-14 hour flight in.

Thats about what US carriers get. What's the problem?

 

[ChasenSFO]

Thats about what US carriers get. What's the problem?

30 hours block lock time not hotel time? These guys probably get to the hotel between 0930-10PM to pass out by 11PM to 12AM and are back at the airport to cross the pond and be wide awake for several hours 24 hours later. Seems...not safe? Unless they stay up all night and then pass out in the late morning which seems unlikely. Either way seems like a crap deal.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

30 hours block lock time not hotel time? These guys probably get to the hotel between 0930-10PM to pass out by 11PM to 12AM and are back at the airport to cross the pond and be wide awake for several hours 24 hours later. Seems...not safe? Unless they stay up all night and then pass out in the late morning which seems unlikely. Either way seems like a crap deal.

That's pretty common for a lot of international ops. Heck, even east coast international flights to Europe typically depart in the evenings 6pm-12 midnight, fly through the night, land in Europe in the AM, and then back the next morning to the US.

 

[Cptnchia]

That's pretty common for a lot of international ops. Heck, even east coast international flights to Europe typically depart in the evenings 6pm-12 midnight, fly through the night, land in Europe in the AM, and then back the next morning to the US.

This is true.

 

[ChasenSFO]

That's pretty common for a lot of international ops. Heck, even east coast international flights to Europe typically depart in the evenings 6pm-12 midnight, fly through the night, land in Europe in the AM, and then back the next morning to the US.

Ah. Yeah that kind of schedule would pretty much take away any appeal of international ops for me, personally. Can't imagine what that does to your body over the course of a career, as badass as it would be to do that kind of flying. Even if you get to enjoy the day in another city and then go to work that night...that sounds incredibly taxing. More so then 3:30AM wakeups to fly 5 legs and at least not jump more than 3 time zones in the course of the day.

 

[Cptnchia]

Ah. Yeah that kind of schedule would pretty much take away any appeal of international ops for me, personally. Can't imagine what that does to your body over the course of a career, as badass as it would be to do that kind of flying. Even if you get to enjoy the day in another city and then go to work that night...that sounds incredibly taxing. More so then 3:30AM wakeups to fly 5 legs and at least not jump more than 3 time zones in the course of the day.

What did you think an international layover was? Crews on the ground are a cost that the airline trys to minimize.

 

[NovemberEcho]

Ah. Yeah that kind of schedule would pretty much take away any appeal of international ops for me, personally. Can't imagine what that does to your body over the course of a career, as badass as it would be to do that kind of flying. Even if you get to enjoy the day in another city and then go to work that night...that sounds incredibly taxing. More so then 3:30AM wakeups to fly 5 legs and at least not jump more than 3 time zones in the course of the day.

Don't they only do that a few days a month though and then have like 3 weeks off?

 

[ChasenSFO]

What did you think an international layover was? Crews on the ground are a cost that the airline trys to minimize.

Less...awful? I can see 30 hours, but no consideration on what it does to the body(especially with international crews often being 40-65) seems...stupid in this day and age. Cash money uber alles I suppose, so long as the execs can still hang you out to dry when you pass 30 feet over an A340 on a taxiway.

Don't they only do that a few days a month though and then have like 3 weeks off?

Not in Taiwan. Reading accident/incident reports and from what I've read on pprune(if accurate), seems like a lot of those guys are home closer to 10-15 days per month then having 3 weeks off work.

 

[DE727UPS]

30 hour layovers give you two sleep opportunities. That's actually a pretty good layover where I come from. 24 hour layovers are far more common and a constant source of complaints. You get one good sleep after your duty period and just about when your ready for your next sleep it's time to go to fly again. It's true multiple time zones mess with your body clock. They say sleep when your tired, even when it's sleep during the light and be awake all night. Sleep when you're sleepy. Never liked international, myself. To many circadian rhythm issues and I can't understand the Chinese controllers speakin' English.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Ah. Yeah that kind of schedule would pretty much take away any appeal of international ops for me, personally. Can't imagine what that does to your body over the course of a career, as badass as it would be to do that kind of flying. Even if you get to enjoy the day in another city and then go to work that night...that sounds incredibly taxing. More so then 3:30AM wakeups to fly 5 legs and at least not jump more than 3 time zones in the course of the day.

It depends on the person. Given a choice, I'd much rather do a 5pm show time as opposed to a 5am showtime, no matter how long the duty day is. I'm much rather fly a redeye that leaves the west coast at 9-11pm and lands 5-7am on the east coast, versus having to wakeup at 4am for a 530am show. I'm sure all this is age-dependent but in my early 30s, that is my preference. Maybe once I'm an "ol' timer" that preference may change.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Also keep in mind, many of those international flights are augmented crews. 3 or 4 man crews, which means you get a decent sleep break inflight. It's not like you're at the controls for the entire flight from SFO to TPE...

 

[BobDDuck]

Less...awful? I can see 30 hours, but no consideration on what it does to the body(especially with international crews often being 40-65) seems...stupid in this day and age. Cash money uber alles I suppose, so long as the execs can still hang you out to dry when you pass 30 feet over an A340 on a taxiway.

There is a sweet spot in international layovers, depending on how many time zones it is away from your domicile (or where you live) and what time you get there. If you are on the ground too long you'll start switching to the new timezone and it will be hell getting adjusted once home. One of our "best" trips is HNL-PEK. The crew leaves here late at night, flies 12 hours (which, depending on if it's a three of four man crew gives them 3 to 5 hours of bunk time) and gets in just in time to get the breakfast buffet at the hotel. They stay up as much as they can, go tour the Great Wall, work out, have dinner and then get 8 hours of sleep, wake up, eat dinner and then depart PEK at midnight. They get back here later afternoon, stay up another 6 hours and then go to bed at a "normal" time. Only 17 hours on the ground in China, but a max rest trip.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

30 hour layovers give you two sleep opportunities. That's actually a pretty good layover where I come from. 24 hour layovers are far more common and a constant source of complaints. You get one good sleep after your duty period and just about when your ready for your next sleep it's time to go to fly again. It's true multiple time zones mess with your body clock. They say sleep when your tired, even when it's sleep during the light and be awake all night. Sleep when you're sleepy. Never liked international, myself. To many circadian rhythm issues and I can't understand the Chinese controllers speakin' English.

I’d rather have a 14 hour than a 24. 24 hour overnights are the devil.

 

[typhoonpilot]

There is a sweet spot in international layovers, depending on how many time zones it is away from your domicile (or where you live) and what time you get there. If you are on the ground too long you'll start switching to the new timezone and it will be hell getting adjusted once home. One of our "best" trips is HNL-PEK. The crew leaves here late at night, flies 12 hours (which, depending on if it's a three of four man crew gives them 3 to 5 hours of bunk time) and gets in just in time to get the breakfast buffet at the hotel. They stay up as much as they can, go tour the Great Wall, work out, have dinner and then get 8 hours of sleep, wake up, eat dinner and then depart PEK at midnight. They get back here later afternoon, stay up another 6 hours and then go to bed at a "normal" time. Only 17 hours on the ground in China, but a max rest trip.

Totally agree. That sweet spot is actually less than 18 or over 30 hours. Less than 18 is one good sleep period, over 30 is two good sleep periods.

One of my favorite trips was a DXB-SIN-SYD-SIN-DXB with only a 12 hour layover in SYD during the Sydney day (but, body clock night). Most of the crew hated it because they wanted to go out and do something. I'd hit the hotel; sleep 8 hours; wake-up and get a work out in; then get back in the jet and fly (normal body clock day time) back to SIN. Very productive trip as well, basically a 30 hour 5 day trip. Had another one with a 17 hour MEL layover that I really liked. When it changed to more than 30 I didn't like it for the reason you stated, started getting adjusted to that time zone.

Both of those trips were great training trips as well. 4 good 7-8 hour sectors in a row with the same student. Could really knock out a lot of the syllabus items and reinforce the material covered.