Early 1990's all over again :(

[A320_DUDE]

Re: 737 dude

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, Just to clear things up for you guys,those of us that have to reposition airplanes go to a class on the operation of the APU (among other systems). It's not like we're out there playing with random switches,we are qualified to play with certain switches!

[/ QUOTE ]

R2F, read that before you have a heart attack.

sbe,
Your boyfriend works Kansas City ramp huh? They're pretty cool out there, although they probably want to kill me for sendin ol flt 99 out there late every night! To tell the truth we don't sit around a 320 nosegear singing kumbaya(or whatever) but we do work as a team.....I can't say that about other AAirlines that I've worked for. You're also right the LCCs are not perfect,but hey there's no fun in not having any flaws!

 

[MikeD]

Re: 737 dude

I think there's a disconnect between the two factions here.

In my world, we're all expected to contribute to the success of the mission. We do that by everyone accomplishing their job to the best of their ability, but also assist in other areas, as able, to ensure that job gets done. Now, being military, this concept is far different from a civilian corporation since we don't have the issues of liability, lawyers, etc, etc, ad naseum.

IMO, in an airline, the situation is somewhat different. First, I don't believe that management should expect an employee to do work beyond his job description. On the other hand, if as a pilot, I'm doing a pre-flight walk-around and I see a baggage handler struggling with a cumbersome bag, I'm not going to just stand there with my arms folded because "it's not my job" to touch bags.

See where I'm going? People are going to naturally help out their co-workers when the need arises, but management shouldn't expect as a rule for people to do work that falls beyond their job description; for soon, that work may then become part of their job description.

 

[ready2fly]

Re: 737 dude

[ QUOTE ]
R2F, read that before you have a heart attack.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again - insults instead of listening.

737_Dude - understand. I place the emphasis on my posts - the exlamation points the capital letters - because I'm trying to (virtually) get your attention.

Frankly, the way you come across here - like you are the master of all things airline - makes me not really give a crap about you nor your future with any airline.

But, being an adult and having been 22 and "Knew it all" - I realize that nothing we say is going to sway you.

While I realize that - yes - you are trained to start APU's - that doesn't mean you should do it unless ASKED.

I'm a Paralegal. I am "trained" in the practice of law. That does not mean that I CAN practice law and if I did - I'd (1) lose my job, and (2) be fined and/or imprisioned.

Sure, I could take the heat off of the attorneys on a big case and give advice to a client. Afterall - I do more work on most of these cases than do the attorneys... but, I don't.

Know why? Go back and take your own advice and READ my posts. You'll see.

Or - maybe you won't.

You're 22. You know everything.

R2F

 

[pilot602]

Re: 737 dude

[ QUOTE ]
IMHO,answer B is the wuss way out.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's fine. But wait 'till one of your birds augers it in and the FAA starts digging around and finding out a shortcut was taken here and a shortcut was taken there. You really think the FAA will give one sh*t about the "need" to turn an aircraft or the "comradre" of helping someone out by doing something you're not qualified or expected (as far as the legal letter of your job descrition goes)? I think not my friend.


Besides you asked what my decision would be and that's what it was. If you think that's the "wus way" out - so be it. But you're not the one facing flying tired, putting your life and the pax lives in harms way or facing FAA action against your certificate. All you're facing is a few minutes delay in getting the hell out of there and going home to your bed.

If I'm tired, in a rush and things are not going right - to hell with it. I'm staying. Don't like it? Fire my ass. But I won't put myself or the passengers (your first priority above all else is the safety of the passengers - to hell if they get where they want to go. If where ever they are going is so damned important rent a car and drive) at danger today just because it might cause some scheduling problems tomorrow - and THAT has been instilled in me from a 28-year, 24,600 hour retired Captain who was "kicking the tires and lighting the fires" BEFORE both you and I were born, my friend. He didn't survive that long by taking shortcuts and rushing to turn an aircraft.

So just keep on doin what your doin and I hope for your sake it doesn't catch up to you or a friend.

 

[pilot602]

Re: 737 dude

[ QUOTE ]
IMO, in an airline, the situation is somewhat different. First, I don't believe that management should expect an employee to do work beyond his job description. On the other hand, if as a pilot, I'm doing a pre-flight walk-around and I see a baggage handler struggling with a cumbersome bag, I'm not going to just stand there with my arms folded because "it's not my job" to touch bags.
See where I'm going? People are going to naturally help out their co-workers when the need arises, but management shouldn't expect as a rule for people to do work that falls beyond their job description; for soon, that work may then become part of their job description.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is all I'm tryin' to say!

I'll help someone out but I'm not going to let management force me to do something "off the clock." There's a fine line between genuine help and cooperation and blatant abuse of work rules.

 

[sbe]

Re: 737 dude

[ QUOTE ]
Your boyfriend works Kansas City ramp huh? They're pretty cool out there, although they probably want to kill me for sendin ol flt 99 out there late every night!

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, he does - and he loves it. SWA IS a great and unique company, to be sure - and they've certainly taken good care of him.

My only beef is that the other airlines aren't necessarily "the axis of evil". Now I have not worked for the airlines, unless you count 3 weeks as a temp at the TWA overhaul base at MCI while in college - but as a frequent traveler I simply do not see the differences in attitude between the workers at different airlines that you are portraying. That's really my whole point.

Sarah

 

[secretapproach]

Re: 737 dude

[ QUOTE ]
You're 22. You know everything.

[/ QUOTE ]

Insults based on age are uncalled for.

 

[ready2fly]

Re: 737 dude

What insult? I was simply stating what appears to be a fact based on his expertise at such a young age.

 

[tonyw]

Re: 737 dude

[ QUOTE ]
Doug, I can honestly say that some major airline pilots do not believe that their future is tied to their airline. The major airline guys tend to want things immedately. That "I want it now" syndrome is why UA,AA and even DL are in the positions they are in now.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have GOT to be kidding me, right? I've got some buddies on furlough from United. Why don't I go and ask them if their future is tied to the airline's? I will bet you any amount of money that they will say yes, it is. Well, not right now, but down the line it is.

If you think that pilot contracts and attitudes are the reasons the traditional airlines are losing money, I suggest that you get an economics textbook and read about the business cycle. Airlines are cyclical businesess. Once the economy recovers and business travel picks up, the so called dinosaurs will be making money hand over fist again. Every time the economy slows, they lose money, and every time it picks up, they make money.

 

[tonyw]

Re: 737 dude

If I'm fifteen minutes from going illegal, I ain't flying. How's that for an answer? I am not going to put my job, my passengers, and my crew on the line just so I can turn an airplane around quicker.

And I sure as hell am not going to put my house, my car, and my family's assets on the line to turn an airplane around quicker.

If that means I won't fit in at a discounter, so be it. I'll go to one of the folks who carry 85 percent of the traffic instead.

 

[ready2fly]

Re: 737 dude

Let me make one thing perfectly clear (Damn - sounded like Tricky Dicky)..

737-Dude's company loyalty is refreshing. It's good to see employees want to go out on a limb for their employer. There's not a lot of that nowadays and I'd say that is mainly because there are not a lot of companies that are loyal to their employees.

But, remember to temper that passion with a healthy respect for what can happen if something goes arry while toting that company line.

You are expendible.

When the chips fall, the "company" is going to cover their butts first. Who do you think the low man on the totum pole is going to be?

 

[derg]

Re: 737 dude

Hey Mike-

The 727 engineers that were PFE's/Age 60+ pilots are "unassigned" (going to be retired), the upgradeable engineers mostly went to the 737 category.

We had quite a few PFE's. Mostly from Northeast and Pan Am. Man, you should hear some of the old Pan Am stories... But I digress!

My checkairman that I had during my 727 FE IOE was a former Northeast mechanic who transferred into their PFE program.

 

[A320_DUDE]

Let me clear some things up

Before this thread degenerates totally, I just want to clear somethings up:

R2F,
We've wrestled a couple of times here on JCs,but I wasn't trying to be rude to you nor trying to be an expert on all things "airline". I know you were trying to give me some advice but to preface it with "Shut the hell up" doesn't exactly make me wanna say "Sir,Yes Sir!" Yeah I'm only 22 years old(so I guess that puts me in the smartass category)but I also been dong ground ops for almost 4 years. It may not be a long time,but it has exposed me to different corporate cultures and operation philosphies. That's where my opinions come from.

pilot602,
IMHO, if you have 15 mins to make the turn-around, you should give it a shot. The passengers(aka our paychecks) really appreciate when you at least try. As for my quick turns...I check my paperwork,recheck my paperwork,and check it one more time before I pull that jetway back, because I know my ass is on the line until that plane is blocked in at the next station. My former supervisor at WN was one of the CSs that worked 1455 out of Vegas the night the pilots decided to take a tour down Hollywood Blvd. He instilled in me the importance of making sure my s**t was correct before pushback,the fact that I can do that in 10 minutes doesn't make me any more unsafe.

Tonyw,
As far as mainline guys "wanting every thing now". Using my favorite example,look at the the UA pilots. When they got that ILC do you think they thought of the future? All they were thinking about was that United (at that point) was falling ass backwards into money and they wanted more of it. To go into any contract negoiation with that mind set is very dangerous.

sbe,
"Axis of evil"..huh? I gotta use that one in the breakroom tomarrow! Seriously, after being told that my company was a root cause of the downfall of the industry, I have very litle respect for a very large portion of the major airline workforce. If you talk to some people at the "LCC" level they will tell you that we are regarded as the "red headed stepchild" by the employees at the majors.

In closing ladies and gents, I realize that we all have different opinions on how it should work out there. I have a "whatever it takes" attitude and that the one that is fostered by my company's culture. I will continue to have that attitude thoughout the rest of my ground ops career and in my future flight ops career. So I guess we can all agree to disagree,okay!

 

[Richman]

Re: Early 1990\'s all over again

Heya Doug,

At NWA, we get crew meals, but some health nut asked the company a few years ago to put "lighter fare" breakfasts on. There was a push sometime ago to do a poll on our preferences, but that went by the wayside with all the recent unpleasantness.

So now you get a HUGE bowl with 8 cherios (count them 1,2 3...yup 8). Nasty peach yogurt. Muffin of indeterminant fossilization. Best is when the AC was catered in MSP the night before, and it sat in MOT or FAR all night long, and everything is frozen. Yummy.

If you get lucky and get a hot FC breakfast, they are actually pretty good.

If there is something open in the morning, I will get up early to eat breakfast at the hotel. Hot food/decent coffee in the morning trumps another 30 mins of sleep anytime, IMO.

The other crew meals we get are all actually pretty decent, except when on a 5 day trip, you start to see the same thing over and over again. We get some french roll type sandwiches that were pretty bland until somebody figured out to toast them in the oven. Then they rocked and were actually tasty.

The desserts rock the house. Dark chocolate tort, chocolate mousse cake or cheesecake...and they are all plate licking good...I put on my required 15 pounds of weight gain the first year in 6 months.

Best,
Richman

 

[Richman]

Re: 737 dude

Phew,

Did this turn into a *&amp(-fest in a hurry or what.

Well, I'm new here, so I will keep my $0.02 brief...

A 40 airplane carrier IS a "niche" player.

Its easy to make cash when you skim the cream. I don't see too many carriers lining up to do MOT-MSP, or SLC-GTF.

ATL-GPT makes money for AirTran and SEVERAL other "small" markets they serve because they have casino contracts that pay them to fly the routes. In the other places, like ICT and Newport News, the cities subsidize their airport expenses and guarentee them a profit from TAXPAYER funded "travel banks". See what happened in TOL when the money ran out..."gee, loads wern't developing as we had hoped...so long and thanks for all the fish".

I've read the financials. I know Jetblue pays for their jets, so put that rumor to rest....they just don't pay much, and there is a BIG balloon payment comming up. Ask Westjet how they are doing now that their are paying full freight on their ACs (can you say "fuel surcharge"?).

Look, I'm glad you dig JetBlue. I'm glad they are paying decent money to obviously dedicated people. And at least they didn't make you pony up 10k for a type before you applied. But, believe me, the schtick gets old after a while, and its nice to have a life outside work. Don't bust on the rest of us for having a life.

BTW, a SWA guy would NEVER denegrate another pilot group in the way you did. Don't hassle a guy unless you walked a mile in his shoes.

RM

 

[stuckingfk]

Re: 737 dude

Richman, my hometown is MOT. I have flown MOT-MSP or vice versa countless times in that DC-9. Are you a DC-9 pilot? If you are, I suppose you have flown that trip. It does get pretty cold in Minot in the winter. How did you like the town? You probably don't get much of a time to layover in Minot if you have been here.

Anyways, I actually love NWA, been flying it since I was 5 years old and I really like what the MSP airport is doing by getting a facelift. I really like it in there.

 

[Richman]

Re: 737 dude

Hiya,

Yup, I'm on the -9, and I've done the MSP-MOT thing. Never done the overnight, though.

If you ever fly into or out of MOT, ask the ground controller to play "the tape". It will resolve any question as to why Minot is the "Magic City".

Without a doubt, the NWA MOT station was one of the most organized, squared away and CLEANEST stations I have ever seen in my 11 years of airline flying. You could eat off the garage floor, and thats no joke. It was like a model home.

You have to love flying in that part of the mid-west. From MSP, departure will climb you to 17k, and then hand you off to the NW MSP center sector (121.05, I think). You talk to them, and its climb to 350, turn left 280, proceed direct when able (to FSD, FAR, MOT, RAP, GTF, GFK ect.). Descents are when you ask, not when you are told, and every once in a while, if you are running late, you can turn the runway lights on yourself. The man greeting you at the gate has been there forever, yet remembers your name from the trip a week before.

GTF had the coolest displays of airplane models ever.

Its a slice of flying from days old, and its almost quaint in retrospect. It can refresh your love of flying.

Very Best,
RM

 

[pilot602]

Re: 737 dude

Rich -

What model are you flying? My father retired off the 9.

 

[Richman]

Re: 737 dude

Hiya 602,

You name it, if its a -9, we fly it. If you are on the -9, you fly them all.

We have -10s (72 seats, hard wing version...no slats), -30s (100 seats, greatest number numerically), -40s (110 seats, from some Scandinavian airline, I think) and -50s (125 seats...1 more than the 319).

Every concivable engine combination for the JT8. -7s, -9s, -11s, -15s and -17s, and very often you have an intermix on the same airplane. Generally though the -7s are on the 10s and SOME 30s. The -9s and 15s are on the -30s...usually the -15 powered -30s are for the western markets. The -11s are for the 40s, and they are real dogs. Finally, the 50s have -17s.

All the -9s (all 170 or so) were lovingly rebuilt from scratch back in the late 90s. All have the new interior with the BIG bins,3 lavs and the forward galley, except for the -10s, which have the new interior but just 2 lavs and beverages only. Very much on par with a 717, except for newness.

Upfront we have some improvements too. The new dual head nav/coms and audio panels are a real blessing. Each AC has its own set of telex headsets now, and writing down freqs are a thing of the past. Most AC have the new digital pressurization. Most have the new EGPWS system and a few have the multifunction LCD display (for radar and EGPWS). Very recently we have been seeing the new digital LCD RSVM altimeters.

If they would just put in a GPS, a better autopilot and some noise baffles for the aircondition vents in the front, it would be almost perfect.

Engine sync would be nice, but only the -50s have that. Usually you use the same sync technique you did on a Seminole. Some are better than others.

Like any Douglas product, the front leaks like a screen door, so best keep your beverage away from the windows when de-icing/raining. There is a little storage box on the outboard side of each seat that was once used for vest storage. Its great at collecting fluid/water, and now we just call them the
"live well" or "bait box".

Our -9s come from all over, and I'm sure more than a few came from Eastern.

Best,
RM

 

[derg]

Re: 737 dude

Richman-

Good lord, dat's a lotta -9 variants!!

I thought I had it bad when the mechanics would put two different brand fuel controls on the JT8-9D's on the -88 and they'd have vastly different spool times.

Sometimes guys will mutter "There's Pratt.... come on Whitney... Here kitty kitty.... Ah, ok, there it is, autothrottles ON!"