Early 1990's all over again :(

[farwellbooth]

Re: Early 1990\'s all over again

Wasn't ALPA fined 45 millionish for American's "sickout"? And the pilots got a bad rap. The pilot union leaders were nicknamed the Taliban...

 

[pscraig]

Re: Early 1990\'s all over again

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Why PsCraig, did you already try?! HA HA HA, before you blast me I was just kidding!

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No, just after I read that post I was looking at my Key loan account online and browsed the list of approved schools, out of curiosity. They did not appear on that list.

What is amazing is the number of approved schools on that list-culinary schools, hair styling academies, tech schools, etc.

 

[pilot602]

Re: Early 1990\'s all over again

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Wasn't ALPA fined 45 millionish for American's "sickout"?

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Can't imagine how that could be true seeing as American's pilot's are represented by the Allied Pilots Association, not ALPA.

ALPA really ought to look into a few new lawyers if this is true!

 

[derg]

Re: Early 1990\'s all over again

Nah, the APA got sued.

American left ALPA back in the 1950's or something like that.

Even Southwest has a union, but they're SWAPA -- interesting because when the 'analysts du jour' speaking lovingly of SWA, they always mention how "non-unionized carriers like SWA -- blah blah blah".

Heck at Delta, the pilots are the only union besides the dispatchers.

 

[E_Dawg]

Re: Early 1990\'s all over again

Wasn't there a story about some airline getting pissed off over some contract thing and ended up charging the pilots for their inflight meals? Needless to say, the pilots did not like that at all and were known to run up the engines while holding short and taxiing. The airline caught on and stopped charging the pilots! No that's how to negotiate a contract!

 

[derg]

Re: Early 1990\'s all over again

Delta used to charge us for inflight meals up until our last contract -- if we wanted to order one. I think it was $15 for dinner, $8 for lunch, $6 for breakfast/lite snack.

Now we get inflight meals on certain flights after a short turn time, but believe me, you're WAY better off making a run for the proverbial airport hot dog. We're talking sub-coach type meals.

Usually it consists of a "chicken-like" meat sandwich with swiss cheese (or sometimes poorly prepared pesto), a candy bar, chips and a tin of salad dressing (yeah, I'm still trying to figure that one out too).

We had a hot egg and ham sandwich for the breakfasts, but on non-meal flights, the frequent fliers started complaining about when the flight attendants would heat our breakfast sandwiches in the oven when there was no meal offered on the flight.

So now we're back to cold cereal and/or fruit so Freddy Frequent Flyer doesn't complain about the smell of the crews sandwiches being heated.

 

[tonyw]

Re: Early 1990\'s all over again

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I've heard that was the concept that UAL pilots used in the 90s to delay virtually all flights without actually striking.

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They just didn't accept any overtime! And the jokers on Wall Street refer to this as "strong armed tactics" and "blackmail" as if it was the equivalent of something from the Godfather.

And Doug, you're so right. The media keeps on talking about how the unions are screwing things up for the traditional carriers and then they trot out Southwest as the right model for everyone. Of course, they fail to mention that Southwest is one of the MOST unionized airlines out there!

 

[derg]

Re: Early 1990\'s all over again

Actually, try this one on for size, Delta pilots got sued for "Not volunteering to fly voluntary overtime" back in 2001.

So figure that one out!

The judge looked at historical voluntary overtime flying and "determined" that we weren't volunteering at normal, historic levels and ruled for the company. Something of the sorts of violating "status quo" during contract negotiations.

Meanwhile, I usually don't fly overtime because I treasure free time with friends and family, so I wonder if I had volunteered to fly overtime, would I have been named in the lawsuit for violating my status quo by flying overtime?

Whoodathunkit.

But get used to this stuff folks.

 

[A320_DUDE]

Re: Early 1990\'s all over again

[ QUOTE ]
I've heard that was the concept that UAL pilots used in the 90s to delay virtually all flights without actually striking.

They just didn't accept any overtime! And the jokers on Wall Street refer to this as "strong armed tactics" and "blackmail" as if it was the equivalent of something from the Godfather.

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That was only part of what went on. They were also being extraordinary slow out there. I know of a couple nights when our pilots wanted to go over to the UA gates and kick ass because UA took too long to vacate the runway,or taxied in at "grandma" speed.

[ QUOTE ]
And Doug, you're so right. The media keeps on talking about how the unions are screwing things up for the traditional carriers and then they trot out Southwest as the right model for everyone. Of course, they fail to mention that Southwest is one of the MOST unionized airlines out there!

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They are the most unionized,but they also know that everyone bank book is tied to that airline....i.e. nobody wants to see the company loose it's ass financially. So we accept a little less than industry standard,and we a little harder too. The reward for that: Less than 24 hours after 9/11 when every one else was talking furloughs,we got a memo from Colleen stated that while we were hurt,we were pretty much okay....and instead of us worrying about our jobs to worry about getting things back to normal. When I got that memo, that compensated me everything.

I know I'm the most vocal about stuff like this, but until the mangement at the majors change....this really won't get better.

Doug, I'm quite certain that every single employee from junior ramp rat to senior 777 capt is hopping mad over Leo's compensation package right now. Or maybe it's the fact that he protected mangement's retirememts and not his employees. If Delta had a CEO like Dave Neeleman or Jim Parker or even Sam Addoms do you think stuff like that would happen? I don't.....leadership starts from the top,and it's that leadership that makes airlines like jetBlue,Southwest and Frontier shine,not employee pay/low fares/one airplane type. Until we see that kind of leadership, the 1990s won't be the historical low in the industry anymore, the 2000s will!

 

[H46Bubba]

Re: Early 1990\'s all over again

Doug, In the Navy we have something similar to your meals, but more retched. We call them "Box Nasties". It usually consists of a ham and very thick government chedder cheese sandwich(which we call horse c*@K and cheese sandwiches), stale chips and a can of juice with a shelf life of 100 years(we estimate). When we fly during meal hours they usually order them an bring them to us when we land for fuel. On my last deployment they were a little better. We had a lot of over fried chicken and dry hamburgers, with as fresh of fruit you can get at sea.

 

[Snow]

Re: Early 1990\'s all over again

[ QUOTE ]
Delta used to charge us for inflight meals up until our last contract -- if we wanted to order one. I think it was $15 for dinner, $8 for lunch, $6 for breakfast/lite snack.

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I think I read somewhere when pilots of a certain airline started gettting charged for drinks, like $2 for a coke. Everytime they bought a drink they would run the engines up to the stops for a few seconds and I betting that was costing the airline a lot more than $2! I think after managment found out this was happening drinks became free for crew once again

 

[tonyw]

Re: Early 1990\'s all over again

[ QUOTE ]
That was only part of what went on. They were also being extraordinary slow out there. I know of a couple nights when our pilots wanted to go over to the UA gates and kick ass because UA took too long to vacate the runway,or taxied in at "grandma" speed.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's still not the "extortion" or "blackmail" that the media portrays it as.

 

[A320_DUDE]

Re: Early 1990\'s all over again

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That was only part of what went on. They were also being extraordinary slow out there. I know of a couple nights when our pilots wanted to go over to the UA gates and kick ass because UA took too long to vacate the runway,or taxied in at "grandma" speed.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's still not the "extortion" or "blackmail" that the media portrays it as.

[/ QUOTE ]

What would you call it? Extortion and blackmail sounds accurate to me.

 

[DE727UPS]

737 dude

Let me ask you something....

Do you think it's right for an airline to expect their employees to work overtime? Airlines historically understaff expecting overtime to be worked. When employees decide not to work the overtime, the airline has a big problem on it's hands. I don't think it's right for an airline to sue their pilot group when that pilot group decides they don't want to work extra...I mean, who the hell has the right to tell me I gotta work extra....

If the airline wants to save money with that kind of staffing model then they have to expect the rug to be pulled out from under them sooner or later...it's not right to plan on overtime and then cry foul when guys decide not to work it.

 

[A320_DUDE]

Re: 737 dude

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Do you think it's right for an airline to expect their employees to work overtime?

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It may not be right but it happens. Like today I'm off,but because of the weather in the northeast today I expect to get a call to come in. Do I want to? Not really, Will I go, yeah...because I need the money and I know what it's like to be understaffed during a weather event. I know some pilots for jBlu are gonna be called in too, and they're gonna have the same response as I do.

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Airlines historically understaff expecting overtime to be worked.

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Beacause we have people who are for lack of a better term "overtime •". I know pilots who VJA on their off days to get as many trips at time and a half (or whatever the trip may pay). It's a accepted practice in the industry,beacuse they know people will work it.

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When employees decide not to work the overtime, the airline has a big problem on it's hands. I don't think it's right for an airline to sue their pilot group when that pilot group decides they don't want to work extra...I mean, who the hell has the right to tell me I gotta work extra....

If the airline wants to save money with that kind of staffing model then they have to expect the rug to be pulled out from under them sooner or later...it's not right to plan on overtime and then cry foul when guys decide not to work it.

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It may not be right to plan out a schedule with overtime in it,but it happens because the planners and crew schedulers know from history how many pilots will want overtime every month. The pilots and unions know that.

What doesn't look right is that during contract negotiation,the crew schedulers cannot find anyone for trips that people would normally jump to take. And when the head of a pilot group comes out and says they are actually doing it to create pressure on mangenment, then yes the company has a right to take that pilot group to court. If you want to get a good contract,you hurt the company.....what kind of logic is that?

You guys are really not learning anything from this current downturn. Do any of you notice that the airline with the less militant pilot groups are the ones who are making headway thru these turbulent times? The majority of us will be on the line next downturn and if you guys don't adjust your thinking you will be on the street with the rest of the pilots who wanted to have their cake and eat it too.



[/ QUOTE ]

 

[davetheflyer]

Re: Early 1990\'s all over again

[ QUOTE ]
Delta used to charge us for inflight meals up until our last contract -- if we wanted to order one. I think it was $15 for dinner, $8 for lunch, $6 for breakfast/lite snack.



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We get all the water, breakfast bars and cheddarfetti that we can eat. We also will "Borrow" the occasional coke as well.

Lately, they have even been putting out granola bars in the crew room for us. Rumor has it that they bought them to serve to the pax, then decided not to because they contain peanuts. I think that some people have a huge allergic reaction to peanuts and that worried the lawyers.

 

[davetheflyer]

Re: Early 1990\'s all over again

[ QUOTE ]
They just didn't accept any overtime!

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I think it went a little beyond that. Working to rule basically means that you follow the book to the tee. For example, if you have a burned out lightbulb that is not going to affect the flight, but the rules say that it must be operational, some people will go ahead and fly to get the flight out on time, then write up the problem later. No flight would leave without everything being properly documented according to the rules.

They might also not ask for ATC shortcuts, taxi slow (as 737 Dude said), and only fly to the minimum of efficiency in a hundred different ways.

 

[tonyw]

Re: 737 dude

[ QUOTE ]
You guys are really not learning anything from this current downturn. Do any of you notice that the airline with the less militant pilot groups are the ones who are making headway thru these turbulent times? The majority of us will be on the line next downturn and if you guys don't adjust your thinking you will be on the street with the rest of the pilots who wanted to have their cake and eat it too.

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I highly doubt it. This is just another business cycle, exacerbated by the threat of terrorism. Once business travel picks up again, you'll see the traditional airlines, with their so called "militant" unions, raking in the bucks once again.

You also might want to think about how the airlines with the so called "militant" unions are the ones who got shafted by management. You know, the same management that's taking tens of millions of dollars in compensation while their companies are losing billions of dollars and telling people to take 20, 30 percent paycuts. That tends to piss off the people being asked to take those paycuts, and justifiably so.

You cannot blame guys who have been shafted time and again by management for getting a little peeved at them and using all the legal tactics at their disposal to get what crumbs they can from management that's making 50 times what they're making and then telling them to take pay cuts.

At some places, it is different, and maybe it is for you. Maybe you are lucky enough to work for an Atlantic Coast, where they're only going to the labor after they take paycuts themselves. Maybe you're not a guy like Doug, who is watching himself get labeled overpaid and underworked yet watching the guy saying that take home 50 times what he'll make.

Unfortunately, that's the exception rather than the rule, and not just in the aviation industry.

 

[derg]

Re: 737 dude

[ QUOTE ]
Do I want to? Not really, Will I go, yeah...because I need the money and I know what it's like to be understaffed during a weather event. I know some pilots for jBlu are gonna be called in too, and they're gonna have the same response as I do.

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I used to feel the same way to while I was an unmarried single pilot. We've got a lot of single fathers, dual income families and pilots with terminally ill spouses that can find it difficult to drop everything when crew scheduling calls on your scheduled day off.

Primarily because this is a "job" and not a "mission". A few months ago, crew scheduling called me on my days off constantly and if I would have suited up and headed out to Dallas each and every time they tried to assign me flying, I would have missed the following over the years:

(a) Had to leave my own wedding early
(b) Leave dinner with the wife
(c) Give up my only weekend with my wife in three months
(d) Missed Christmas with a dying brother-in-law
(e) Flown an extra two days with dirty underwear, de-icing fluid stenched uniform shirts and stinky socks.

And believe me, I've got it pretty easy.

I can't even imagine trying to raise children while being an airline pilot!

 

[davetheflyer]

Re: 737 dude

[ QUOTE ]
Do any of you notice that the airline with the less militant pilot groups are the ones who are making headway thru these turbulent times?

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I am assuming that you are referring to the LCCs like JetBlue, Southwest, and Air Tran here. I think that it's time to point out the difference between the LCCs and the majors. This is a case of comparing apples and oranges.

LCCs are niche players. They cover a few large markets and that is all. They do this well, but this is all that they do, and it is dishonest to compare them directly with the majors.

UAL, Delta, etc. have a much bigger role. In addition to covering the large markets, they also provide service and infrastructure to hundreds of smaller markets. These smaller markets feed their routes between larger domestic cities (the same routes the LCCs fly) and their international destinations (which are not covered by the LCCs).

If it were up the LCCs, people in cities like Binghamton NY, State College PA, and Roanoke VA, to name a few, would not have any airline service available. It would not be possible for the LCCs to service these destinations, even if they wanted to, because their one aircraft type would not be able to land on many of the shorter runways found in these places.

And getting back to the subject of militant unions, what makes being "militant" wrong when the CEOs are taking multi-million dollar bonuses while cutting pay and furloughing their employees? In my own case, management is asking for concessions while the company is still profitable and revenue miles are up 21% last year.