Early 1990's all over again :(
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pilot602
If specified, this will replace the title that
Re: 737 dude
Everybody says SWA is a great place to work andthe atmosphere is so wonderful - but that won't last too much longer, IMHO.
Why?
Well the 401 pension was great for the first generation of pilots, employees. Hell there are literally a few "millionaires" running around. it's easy to give a little here and there on your day-to-day salary when you know your stocks are your "golden parachute."
But the new guys/gals are entering a stable environment where that 401 just isn't going to make a lot (compared to the first batch). And it's a lot harder to take a pay freeze knowing that eventually your 15 minutes will be up and at the end of it there won't be much waiting for you.
Times are a changing at SWA. Mark my words, all it will take is one screwing (perceived or real) and that whole "love" attitude will change real quick. It's already in the process.
Everybody says SWA is a great place to work andthe atmosphere is so wonderful - but that won't last too much longer, IMHO.
Why?
Well the 401 pension was great for the first generation of pilots, employees. Hell there are literally a few "millionaires" running around. it's easy to give a little here and there on your day-to-day salary when you know your stocks are your "golden parachute."
But the new guys/gals are entering a stable environment where that 401 just isn't going to make a lot (compared to the first batch). And it's a lot harder to take a pay freeze knowing that eventually your 15 minutes will be up and at the end of it there won't be much waiting for you.
Times are a changing at SWA. Mark my words, all it will take is one screwing (perceived or real) and that whole "love" attitude will change real quick. It's already in the process.
A320_DUDE
Well-Known Member
Re: 737 dude
I'm gonna try and reply to all those questions posed:
Dave,
That's the first I've heard of Southwest(375 airplanes),Airtran(100+ airplanes),Frontier(40+ airplanes),and jetBlue(40 airplanes)as "niche" airlines. That's a big ass niche. Fact is SWA is a major and the others are fast approaching that point. As for serving "smaller" communities, USAir played that game of running 737s into every podunk,backwater city on the east coast....and guess what,it did'nt work. If you can't make money on a route,then axe it. Take for instance SW started BWI-OKC a couple months ago,but it underperformed so now it's gone, you can't just fly a route just so you can say you can....United and American do alot of this.
Doug and pilot602.
I'm not saying that some pilots at SW aren't a little bit militant,but those that are most likely aren't gonna end up as reps for SWAPA. Again I'll say this: Every one at SWA knows their bank book is tied to that airline......no one wants to see SW start loosing their ass finanically!. As far as retirements, It may change in the future,but I don't think it will. Everyone walking in the door at SW (or any other LCC) knows for fact that they are going to have to come up with a retirement scheme. Times are changing at SWA,but do I think it will degenerate into a "UAL" type of situation....never in a million years.
I'm gonna try and reply to all those questions posed:
Dave,
That's the first I've heard of Southwest(375 airplanes),Airtran(100+ airplanes),Frontier(40+ airplanes),and jetBlue(40 airplanes)as "niche" airlines. That's a big ass niche. Fact is SWA is a major and the others are fast approaching that point. As for serving "smaller" communities, USAir played that game of running 737s into every podunk,backwater city on the east coast....and guess what,it did'nt work. If you can't make money on a route,then axe it. Take for instance SW started BWI-OKC a couple months ago,but it underperformed so now it's gone, you can't just fly a route just so you can say you can....United and American do alot of this.
Doug and pilot602.
I'm not saying that some pilots at SW aren't a little bit militant,but those that are most likely aren't gonna end up as reps for SWAPA. Again I'll say this: Every one at SWA knows their bank book is tied to that airline......no one wants to see SW start loosing their ass finanically!. As far as retirements, It may change in the future,but I don't think it will. Everyone walking in the door at SW (or any other LCC) knows for fact that they are going to have to come up with a retirement scheme. Times are changing at SWA,but do I think it will degenerate into a "UAL" type of situation....never in a million years.
tonyw
Well-Known Member
Re: 737 dude
[ QUOTE ]
Every one at SWA knows their bank book is tied to that airline......no one wants to see SW start loosing their ass finanically!.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh, and the "militant" UAL pilots didn't? How do you think that their checkbook looks now, with their stock that used to be worth $40 a share now worth pennies? Doug just told you that he's tens of thousands in the hole on his options. Don't you think that the so called "militant" pilots know that their financial future is tied to their airline's?
Furthermore, for all your talk of how many planes and flights the discounters fly, know how much traffic they carry? About 15 percent of the total. That's a niche, my friend, plain and simple.
[ QUOTE ]
Every one at SWA knows their bank book is tied to that airline......no one wants to see SW start loosing their ass finanically!.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh, and the "militant" UAL pilots didn't? How do you think that their checkbook looks now, with their stock that used to be worth $40 a share now worth pennies? Doug just told you that he's tens of thousands in the hole on his options. Don't you think that the so called "militant" pilots know that their financial future is tied to their airline's?
Furthermore, for all your talk of how many planes and flights the discounters fly, know how much traffic they carry? About 15 percent of the total. That's a niche, my friend, plain and simple.
Re: 737 dude
Huh?
Hey man, nothing more stressful like the morning routine of waking up, brushing your teeth as you turn the remote control to the Bloomberg Network to make sure your airline is still solvent!
The bozo behind the counter at Chipotle Grill on Frank Lloyd Wright Blvd making burrittos knows that his job depends on customer satisfaction as well do airline professionals.
However, most things are out of our direct control. I can only fly a jet, point someone lost out to the correct gate and revise my Jepps.
I'm not allowed (or even instructed) on how to check if someone is confirmed on a flight, check in passengers, and my employment insurance doesn't cover me if I get hurt doing someone outside of my stated job scope.
I doubt if there is an airline pilot alive that doesn't think of himself as married to the airline. Thick or thin, good times or bad, we're all captains that go down with the ship. Many people in upper management have guaranteed pensions, golden parachutes and the ability to jump company to company without having to start at the mail room.
Come on now, man!
Huh?
Hey man, nothing more stressful like the morning routine of waking up, brushing your teeth as you turn the remote control to the Bloomberg Network to make sure your airline is still solvent!
The bozo behind the counter at Chipotle Grill on Frank Lloyd Wright Blvd making burrittos knows that his job depends on customer satisfaction as well do airline professionals.
However, most things are out of our direct control. I can only fly a jet, point someone lost out to the correct gate and revise my Jepps.
I'm not allowed (or even instructed) on how to check if someone is confirmed on a flight, check in passengers, and my employment insurance doesn't cover me if I get hurt doing someone outside of my stated job scope.
I doubt if there is an airline pilot alive that doesn't think of himself as married to the airline. Thick or thin, good times or bad, we're all captains that go down with the ship. Many people in upper management have guaranteed pensions, golden parachutes and the ability to jump company to company without having to start at the mail room.
Come on now, man!
davetheflyer
New Member
Re: 737 dude
[ QUOTE ]
That's the first I've heard of Southwest(375 airplanes),Airtran(100+ airplanes),Frontier(40+ airplanes),and jetBlue(40 airplanes)as "niche" airlines. That's a big ass niche.
[/ QUOTE ]
Granted, but it's still a niche. Their niche is serving high volume markets such as NYC, Atlanta, and Orlando. They totally ignore the smaller markets (with the exception of Air Tran, which just signed Air Wisconsin as its regional carrier) as well as the overseas routes.
[ QUOTE ]
As for serving "smaller" communities, USAir played that game of running 737s into every podunk,backwater city on the east coast....and guess what,it did'nt work.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks for making my point. The one-size-fits-all approach that works in their niche, doesn't work everywhere. But that doesn't mean those routes can't be profitable, it would just require a different airplane, an RJ or turboprop for example, that is better suited to the smaller route.
When you add another aircraft type, the LCC philosophy starts to go out the window because then you need more maintenance, training, pilots, etc. And it costs more because you have to maintain quality on at least two different aircraft types.
But my orginal point is that the majors and the LCCs are two completely different animals that cannot be compared directly.
Granted, the LCC philosophy seems to be more profitable at the moment, but that is at least partly because the market is more open than that of the majors. See what happens five years from now when the market is saturated by upstarts like Hooters, Virgin America, and whoever else pops up. I forsee that the LCC are going to start hurting in the next few years.
[ QUOTE ]
That's the first I've heard of Southwest(375 airplanes),Airtran(100+ airplanes),Frontier(40+ airplanes),and jetBlue(40 airplanes)as "niche" airlines. That's a big ass niche.
[/ QUOTE ]
Granted, but it's still a niche. Their niche is serving high volume markets such as NYC, Atlanta, and Orlando. They totally ignore the smaller markets (with the exception of Air Tran, which just signed Air Wisconsin as its regional carrier) as well as the overseas routes.
[ QUOTE ]
As for serving "smaller" communities, USAir played that game of running 737s into every podunk,backwater city on the east coast....and guess what,it did'nt work.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks for making my point. The one-size-fits-all approach that works in their niche, doesn't work everywhere. But that doesn't mean those routes can't be profitable, it would just require a different airplane, an RJ or turboprop for example, that is better suited to the smaller route.
When you add another aircraft type, the LCC philosophy starts to go out the window because then you need more maintenance, training, pilots, etc. And it costs more because you have to maintain quality on at least two different aircraft types.
But my orginal point is that the majors and the LCCs are two completely different animals that cannot be compared directly.
Granted, the LCC philosophy seems to be more profitable at the moment, but that is at least partly because the market is more open than that of the majors. See what happens five years from now when the market is saturated by upstarts like Hooters, Virgin America, and whoever else pops up. I forsee that the LCC are going to start hurting in the next few years.
A320_DUDE
Well-Known Member
Re: 737 dude
[ QUOTE ]
That's the first I've heard of Southwest(375 airplanes),Airtran(100+ airplanes),Frontier(40+ airplanes),and jetBlue(40 airplanes)as "niche" airlines. That's a big ass niche.
Granted, but it's still a niche. Their niche is serving high volume markets such as NYC, Atlanta, and Orlando. They totally ignore the smaller markets (with the exception of Air Tran, which just signed Air Wisconsin as its regional carrier) as well as the overseas routes.
[/ QUOTE ]
I did'nt realize that routes like El Paso-Lubbock(SWA),Atlanta-Gulfport(FL),Denver-Oklahoma City(F9)and New York-Burlington(B6) were such high volume markets. Just being a little sarcastic but you can see my point,us "LCC" folks just don't fly the kiddies to Orlando.
[ QUOTE ]
But my orginal point is that the majors and the LCCs are two completely different animals that cannot be compared directly.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then explain to me why we have things like Song,MetroJet,Delta Express and United Shuttle popping up all the time.
[ QUOTE ]
See what happens five years from now when the market is saturated by upstarts like Hooters, Virgin America, and whoever else pops up. I forsee that the LCC are going to start hurting in the next few years.
[/ QUOTE ]
The difference here is that the "LCCs" plan on rainy days. We have survived(and made a profit) in the most unhospitable business enviorment in airline history....I think we'll be the red-headed stepchildren of the industry for a little bit longer.
Doug, I can honestly say that some major airline pilots do not believe that their future is tied to their airline. 10 years ago the SW guys took a contract that they knew would put them far,far behind in compensation...but would allow the company to expand. Their gamble paid off and now they are among the highest paid 737 drivers in the world. The JB guys are doing the same thing now. They currently top out at about 150k (so they don't make as much as you,Doug), but they are betting that the company will grow and expand therefore justifying higher wages. The major airline guys tend to want things immedately. That "I want it now" syndrome is why UA,AA and even DL are in the positions they are in now.
As far as the whole "I'm only paid to be a pilot" comment....that would never,ever fly here! I appreciate the fact that our pilots help out by either bringing a wheelchair passenger down to a airplane, helping to clean up the cabin or throwing a couple bags. It shows me that they don't have that typical "Pilot" attitude. I got that alot when I worked at AA, and was part of the reason why I wasn't goin to pursue this career.At SWA I had a captain(a 25 year DAL vet,no less) spell me at my gate one afternoon so I could get to the bathroom,I appreciated that, just like I appreciated the 2 JB pilots that came down and helped us throw bags in a sleet storm. I know most folks here are saying "Never in a million years will I do that when I get to a major airline job" and you'll be right,you guys won't do it. But this so-called "niche" guy will be doing it,and having some of the best fun my life!
[ QUOTE ]
That's the first I've heard of Southwest(375 airplanes),Airtran(100+ airplanes),Frontier(40+ airplanes),and jetBlue(40 airplanes)as "niche" airlines. That's a big ass niche.
Granted, but it's still a niche. Their niche is serving high volume markets such as NYC, Atlanta, and Orlando. They totally ignore the smaller markets (with the exception of Air Tran, which just signed Air Wisconsin as its regional carrier) as well as the overseas routes.
[/ QUOTE ]
I did'nt realize that routes like El Paso-Lubbock(SWA),Atlanta-Gulfport(FL),Denver-Oklahoma City(F9)and New York-Burlington(B6) were such high volume markets. Just being a little sarcastic but you can see my point,us "LCC" folks just don't fly the kiddies to Orlando.
[ QUOTE ]
But my orginal point is that the majors and the LCCs are two completely different animals that cannot be compared directly.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then explain to me why we have things like Song,MetroJet,Delta Express and United Shuttle popping up all the time.
[ QUOTE ]
See what happens five years from now when the market is saturated by upstarts like Hooters, Virgin America, and whoever else pops up. I forsee that the LCC are going to start hurting in the next few years.
[/ QUOTE ]
The difference here is that the "LCCs" plan on rainy days. We have survived(and made a profit) in the most unhospitable business enviorment in airline history....I think we'll be the red-headed stepchildren of the industry for a little bit longer.
Doug, I can honestly say that some major airline pilots do not believe that their future is tied to their airline. 10 years ago the SW guys took a contract that they knew would put them far,far behind in compensation...but would allow the company to expand. Their gamble paid off and now they are among the highest paid 737 drivers in the world. The JB guys are doing the same thing now. They currently top out at about 150k (so they don't make as much as you,Doug), but they are betting that the company will grow and expand therefore justifying higher wages. The major airline guys tend to want things immedately. That "I want it now" syndrome is why UA,AA and even DL are in the positions they are in now.
As far as the whole "I'm only paid to be a pilot" comment....that would never,ever fly here! I appreciate the fact that our pilots help out by either bringing a wheelchair passenger down to a airplane, helping to clean up the cabin or throwing a couple bags. It shows me that they don't have that typical "Pilot" attitude. I got that alot when I worked at AA, and was part of the reason why I wasn't goin to pursue this career.At SWA I had a captain(a 25 year DAL vet,no less) spell me at my gate one afternoon so I could get to the bathroom,I appreciated that, just like I appreciated the 2 JB pilots that came down and helped us throw bags in a sleet storm. I know most folks here are saying "Never in a million years will I do that when I get to a major airline job" and you'll be right,you guys won't do it. But this so-called "niche" guy will be doing it,and having some of the best fun my life!
Re: 737 dude
Actually, I can tell you all about Delta Express!
Delta Express served a two fold method. The Northeast corridor was 'googly-eyed' over LCC's back in the mid to late 1990's so Delta threw it's name in the hat.
First, the FL market is low yield. So DLX enabled Delta to bypass low yield passengers from flying thru ATL or CVG to reach their final destinations.
With the leisure market bypassing major (premium fare) hubs, we were able to free up more higher-yield seats during a period of time where demand was high and available seats were low. Delta was able to hold on to an important market and reverberate off of some of the public's fascination with the SWA LCC who just entered the market.
Actually, I can tell you all about Delta Express!
Delta Express served a two fold method. The Northeast corridor was 'googly-eyed' over LCC's back in the mid to late 1990's so Delta threw it's name in the hat.
First, the FL market is low yield. So DLX enabled Delta to bypass low yield passengers from flying thru ATL or CVG to reach their final destinations.
With the leisure market bypassing major (premium fare) hubs, we were able to free up more higher-yield seats during a period of time where demand was high and available seats were low. Delta was able to hold on to an important market and reverberate off of some of the public's fascination with the SWA LCC who just entered the market.
pilot602
If specified, this will replace the title that
Re: 737 dude
[ QUOTE ]
The major airline guys tend to want things immedately.
[/ QUOTE ]
What!?
Pilots, as a whole, make less today then they did 10 years ago. If "mainline guys want things immediately" please explain how, exactly, this happened?
And, no offense, but there is a difference between helping out a fellow employee and being forced or expected to perform job functions that are not in your employment description and for which you are not compensated. Not to mention that, as Doug pointed out, comapny insurance does not cover "off the clock" employees or employees performing tasks not associated with their job category.
Allowing the company to expect or deman cross category work on a non-compensated/trained basis is nothing but blatant abuse of the employe structure and putting the employees themselves in a dangerous and potentially libale position. I don't see the CEOs out manning the "blue lagoon."
And I'd sure as hell hate to be the pilot who puts 10 year-old on the wrong flight and something happens to the kid or the tug guy who fires up an APU incorrectly and does major damage to the airframe. Because in those situations those funtions are outside the scope of the person performing that task and they would then be held liable - not the company.
[ QUOTE ]
The major airline guys tend to want things immedately.
[/ QUOTE ]
What!?
Pilots, as a whole, make less today then they did 10 years ago. If "mainline guys want things immediately" please explain how, exactly, this happened?
And, no offense, but there is a difference between helping out a fellow employee and being forced or expected to perform job functions that are not in your employment description and for which you are not compensated. Not to mention that, as Doug pointed out, comapny insurance does not cover "off the clock" employees or employees performing tasks not associated with their job category.
Allowing the company to expect or deman cross category work on a non-compensated/trained basis is nothing but blatant abuse of the employe structure and putting the employees themselves in a dangerous and potentially libale position. I don't see the CEOs out manning the "blue lagoon."
And I'd sure as hell hate to be the pilot who puts 10 year-old on the wrong flight and something happens to the kid or the tug guy who fires up an APU incorrectly and does major damage to the airframe. Because in those situations those funtions are outside the scope of the person performing that task and they would then be held liable - not the company.
A320_DUDE
Well-Known Member
Re: 737 dude
[ QUOTE ]
Or the tug guy who fires up an APU incorrectly and does major damage to the airframe. Because in those situations those funtions are outside the scope of the person performing that task and they would then be held liable - not the company.
[/ QUOTE ]
You know I kinda resemble that remark. I know the APU start sequence of the 320 down cold,so during the winter time I was starting the APUs before the crews got down to the airplanes. Was it in my job desciption,No. I did it because I know what I would'nt want to board a cold airplane. Would it be my ass if something went wrong....maybe,maybe not...but I'd rather help a fellow coworker out than be a a**shole just beacause it isn't my job.
And BTW, our CEO has manned every position from dumping lavs to being the CEO of this great company. The only thing he hasn't done so far is fly one of these airplanes,and with Dave you never know what he's gonna do next!
[ QUOTE ]
Or the tug guy who fires up an APU incorrectly and does major damage to the airframe. Because in those situations those funtions are outside the scope of the person performing that task and they would then be held liable - not the company.
[/ QUOTE ]
You know I kinda resemble that remark. I know the APU start sequence of the 320 down cold,so during the winter time I was starting the APUs before the crews got down to the airplanes. Was it in my job desciption,No. I did it because I know what I would'nt want to board a cold airplane. Would it be my ass if something went wrong....maybe,maybe not...but I'd rather help a fellow coworker out than be a a**shole just beacause it isn't my job.
And BTW, our CEO has manned every position from dumping lavs to being the CEO of this great company. The only thing he hasn't done so far is fly one of these airplanes,and with Dave you never know what he's gonna do next!
pilot602
If specified, this will replace the title that
Re: 737 dude
[ QUOTE ]
Was it in my job desciption,No. I did it because I know what I would'nt want to board a cold airplane. Would it be my ass if something went wrong....maybe,maybe not...but I'd rather help a fellow coworker out than be a a**shole just beacause it isn't my job.
[/ QUOTE ]
The road to hell is paved with good intentions ...
Meaning that's fine and well but the day something goes wrong all the love and honor and nice guy feelings managment spews and harps on won't do a damn thing save your a$$.
Doing your job, and only what's outlined in your job, is not being an a**hole - it's called doing your job. There is a reason there are different positions within the company. There is a reason there are different job categories and a reason for division of labor (tasks).
Allowing or expecting people to do things not in their job description is exploitive and dangerous and, honestly, insulting. I say insulting as in from a management's perspective not that throwing bags is "below" a pilot or that draining the lavs is "below" a ticket agent I mean it's insulting to think that management thinks so little of it's employee group as to expect free labor and free labor at the personal risk of the employee doing the task! And that's simply the facts.
I'm not going to change your mind on this, and there's nothing wrong in helping a fellow employee but I just hope it doesn't come back to burn you. Ask a lawyer what they think of this practice from simply a liability standpoint and I think you'll be shocked at what you learn.
[ QUOTE ]
Was it in my job desciption,No. I did it because I know what I would'nt want to board a cold airplane. Would it be my ass if something went wrong....maybe,maybe not...but I'd rather help a fellow coworker out than be a a**shole just beacause it isn't my job.
[/ QUOTE ]
The road to hell is paved with good intentions ...
Meaning that's fine and well but the day something goes wrong all the love and honor and nice guy feelings managment spews and harps on won't do a damn thing save your a$$.
Doing your job, and only what's outlined in your job, is not being an a**hole - it's called doing your job. There is a reason there are different positions within the company. There is a reason there are different job categories and a reason for division of labor (tasks).
Allowing or expecting people to do things not in their job description is exploitive and dangerous and, honestly, insulting. I say insulting as in from a management's perspective not that throwing bags is "below" a pilot or that draining the lavs is "below" a ticket agent I mean it's insulting to think that management thinks so little of it's employee group as to expect free labor and free labor at the personal risk of the employee doing the task! And that's simply the facts.
I'm not going to change your mind on this, and there's nothing wrong in helping a fellow employee but I just hope it doesn't come back to burn you. Ask a lawyer what they think of this practice from simply a liability standpoint and I think you'll be shocked at what you learn.
ready2fly
Well-Known Member
Re: 737 dude
[ QUOTE ]
Ask a lawyer what they think of this practice from simply a liability standpoint and I think you'll be shocked at what you learn.
[/ QUOTE ]
OOH-OOH - I know this one - Pick me!!! I work for attorneys (whose primary practice is in aviation law, BTW) and I just ran your little scenario by them as:
Me: "Hey, say a guy that works the ramp for an airline decides to help out the pilots by warming up the APU on an Airbus 320. Now, remember - it's not in his job description..."
Atty: "Stop right there. Why is he warming up the APU on an Airbus 320??"
Me: "He wants to help out the pilots."
Atty: "And that is not part of his job description?"
Me: "Nope"
Atty: "Then he shouldn't be anywhere NEAR the APU."
Me: "Why do you say that?"
Atty: "well, his intentions are good, but if something goes wrong, it's his job."
Bottom line: If it ain't in your job description - DON'T DO IT!!
Why? Because:
[ QUOTE ]
Doing your job, and only what's outlined in your job, is not being an a**hole - it's called doing your job.
[/ QUOTE ]
And as 602 put it:
[ QUOTE ]
the day something goes wrong all the love and honor and nice guy feelings managment spews and harps on won't do a damn thing save your a$$.
[/ QUOTE ]
Clear enough for ya?
R2F
[ QUOTE ]
Ask a lawyer what they think of this practice from simply a liability standpoint and I think you'll be shocked at what you learn.
[/ QUOTE ]
OOH-OOH - I know this one - Pick me!!! I work for attorneys (whose primary practice is in aviation law, BTW) and I just ran your little scenario by them as:
Me: "Hey, say a guy that works the ramp for an airline decides to help out the pilots by warming up the APU on an Airbus 320. Now, remember - it's not in his job description..."
Atty: "Stop right there. Why is he warming up the APU on an Airbus 320??"
Me: "He wants to help out the pilots."
Atty: "And that is not part of his job description?"
Me: "Nope"
Atty: "Then he shouldn't be anywhere NEAR the APU."
Me: "Why do you say that?"
Atty: "well, his intentions are good, but if something goes wrong, it's his job."
Bottom line: If it ain't in your job description - DON'T DO IT!!
Why? Because:
[ QUOTE ]
Doing your job, and only what's outlined in your job, is not being an a**hole - it's called doing your job.
[/ QUOTE ]
And as 602 put it:
[ QUOTE ]
the day something goes wrong all the love and honor and nice guy feelings managment spews and harps on won't do a damn thing save your a$$.
[/ QUOTE ]
Clear enough for ya?
R2F
A320_DUDE
Well-Known Member
Re: 737 dude
pilot602,
Can I pose you a question then?
Let's say you are a airline captain. You fly ORD-DFW but end up taking an excessive delay outta ORD. You arrive into DFW so late that you have to do a 15 min turn in order to get back out on without going illegal. It's the last day of your trip and you have 150 passengers looking at you.
Do you:
(a) Start throwing bags,assisting passnegers on board,and doing other things not in your job category to get out before your drop dead time.
or
(b) Call dispatch and tell them to book hotel rooms for you and your crew while your 150 passengers spend the night in DFW because throwing bags or helping out in any other way is "below" you.
I'll put it like this,there is NO WAY IN HELL TO TURN A AIRPLANE IN 25-35 mins without EVERYONE helping out. That means pilots,F/As,rampers,customer service,and ops. We even need the passnegers to help out. It's a part of our business plan and very much ingrained into our culture.
I'm telling you guys right now.......NONE of you would make it at a company like this with the attitude that I am only responsible for only my job. I'd like to see how some of you guys are gonna pass those CRM classes in the future.
BTW, Just to clear things up for you guys,those of us that have to reposition airplanes go to a class on the operation of the APU (among other systems). It's not like we're out there playing with random switches,we are qualified to play with certain switches!
pilot602,
Can I pose you a question then?
Let's say you are a airline captain. You fly ORD-DFW but end up taking an excessive delay outta ORD. You arrive into DFW so late that you have to do a 15 min turn in order to get back out on without going illegal. It's the last day of your trip and you have 150 passengers looking at you.
Do you:
(a) Start throwing bags,assisting passnegers on board,and doing other things not in your job category to get out before your drop dead time.
or
(b) Call dispatch and tell them to book hotel rooms for you and your crew while your 150 passengers spend the night in DFW because throwing bags or helping out in any other way is "below" you.
I'll put it like this,there is NO WAY IN HELL TO TURN A AIRPLANE IN 25-35 mins without EVERYONE helping out. That means pilots,F/As,rampers,customer service,and ops. We even need the passnegers to help out. It's a part of our business plan and very much ingrained into our culture.
I'm telling you guys right now.......NONE of you would make it at a company like this with the attitude that I am only responsible for only my job. I'd like to see how some of you guys are gonna pass those CRM classes in the future.
BTW, Just to clear things up for you guys,those of us that have to reposition airplanes go to a class on the operation of the APU (among other systems). It's not like we're out there playing with random switches,we are qualified to play with certain switches!
pilot602
If specified, this will replace the title that
Re: 737 dude
[ QUOTE ]
Let's say you are a airline captain. You fly ORD-DFW but end up taking an excessive delay outta ORD. You arrive into DFW so late that you have to do a 15 min turn in order to get back out on without going illegal. It's the last day of your trip and you have 150 passengers looking at you.
[/ QUOTE ]
B!
But not because throwing bags is "below" me. If you had taken the time to read my post you'd have noticed that I have never once said that a task not outlined in a given job description is "below" that description it simply not listed there and because it's not listed by perfroming anything other than what's listed YOU are opening yourself to danger and liability.
I'd call it a night because im 15 minutes from going illegal and when you start rushing that when things go t*ts up. It's my life, and the life of the passengers on that plane if something gets fuxed in the rush to turn an aircraft in an insanely short period of time. So in YOUR scenario I'd 86 the flight. You asked, I answered. It's a safety of flight issue not a matter of not helping out. And that's what captains get paid for - making decisions like that. And no offense, but not to throw bags or clean up dirty diapers or to tow the aircraft in or out or in any other way make up for the poor and cheap way that management has decided to understaff for that night.
It's not because those tasks are below anyone it's because for a given description many of those tasks aren't part of the job. And by [performing those tasks, tasks outside your job description[/b] you are putting yourself in a pretty crappy position if something goes wrong.
It's not like management didn't know this flight was late. What they couldn't have asked for a few more rampers, gate agents, etc. to stick aorund and help out? People who know how to do their indivdual jobs better than someone not trained to do it? No, instead they expect people to do free work because they didn't want to pay the over time, or the staffing costs, to keep a full staff around - and that's bullsh*t!
Just MHO, though. Take it for what it's worth.
[ QUOTE ]
Let's say you are a airline captain. You fly ORD-DFW but end up taking an excessive delay outta ORD. You arrive into DFW so late that you have to do a 15 min turn in order to get back out on without going illegal. It's the last day of your trip and you have 150 passengers looking at you.
[/ QUOTE ]
B!
But not because throwing bags is "below" me. If you had taken the time to read my post you'd have noticed that I have never once said that a task not outlined in a given job description is "below" that description it simply not listed there and because it's not listed by perfroming anything other than what's listed YOU are opening yourself to danger and liability.
I'd call it a night because im 15 minutes from going illegal and when you start rushing that when things go t*ts up. It's my life, and the life of the passengers on that plane if something gets fuxed in the rush to turn an aircraft in an insanely short period of time. So in YOUR scenario I'd 86 the flight. You asked, I answered. It's a safety of flight issue not a matter of not helping out. And that's what captains get paid for - making decisions like that. And no offense, but not to throw bags or clean up dirty diapers or to tow the aircraft in or out or in any other way make up for the poor and cheap way that management has decided to understaff for that night.
It's not because those tasks are below anyone it's because for a given description many of those tasks aren't part of the job. And by [performing those tasks, tasks outside your job description[/b] you are putting yourself in a pretty crappy position if something goes wrong.
It's not like management didn't know this flight was late. What they couldn't have asked for a few more rampers, gate agents, etc. to stick aorund and help out? People who know how to do their indivdual jobs better than someone not trained to do it? No, instead they expect people to do free work because they didn't want to pay the over time, or the staffing costs, to keep a full staff around - and that's bullsh*t!
Just MHO, though. Take it for what it's worth.
ready2fly
Well-Known Member
Re: 737 dude
[ QUOTE ]
I'm telling you guys right now.......NONE of you would make it at a company like this with the attitude that I am only responsible for only my job. I'd like to see how some of you guys are gonna pass those CRM classes in the future.
[/ QUOTE ]
Listen "Dude" - we're trying to save your A$$ and you're throwing out insults.
Maybe you should SHUT THE HELL UP and listen to what those who are older and wiser and TRYING TO HELP YOU are saying.
You're so hell-bent on this whole "attitude" thing and it has NOTHING to do with attitude. N-O-T-H-I-N-G!
I just posted where an attorney - who KNOWS HIS SH*T BTW when it comes to the airline biz - has indirectly advised you to CEASE AND DESIST all actions that are NOT PART OF YOU JOB DESCRIPTION. Not because it'll "look good" or "look bad", but because you WILL lose your job.
Go to someone in HR or Management and ask them to put it IN WRITING that you will NOT be held liable if performing a duty that is not part of your job description - and see if they don't laugh you out the door.
AGAIN - LISTEN when people are trying to give you advice!!
R2F
[ QUOTE ]
I'm telling you guys right now.......NONE of you would make it at a company like this with the attitude that I am only responsible for only my job. I'd like to see how some of you guys are gonna pass those CRM classes in the future.
[/ QUOTE ]
Listen "Dude" - we're trying to save your A$$ and you're throwing out insults.
Maybe you should SHUT THE HELL UP and listen to what those who are older and wiser and TRYING TO HELP YOU are saying.
You're so hell-bent on this whole "attitude" thing and it has NOTHING to do with attitude. N-O-T-H-I-N-G!
I just posted where an attorney - who KNOWS HIS SH*T BTW when it comes to the airline biz - has indirectly advised you to CEASE AND DESIST all actions that are NOT PART OF YOU JOB DESCRIPTION. Not because it'll "look good" or "look bad", but because you WILL lose your job.
Go to someone in HR or Management and ask them to put it IN WRITING that you will NOT be held liable if performing a duty that is not part of your job description - and see if they don't laugh you out the door.
AGAIN - LISTEN when people are trying to give you advice!!
R2F
A320_DUDE
Well-Known Member
Re: 737 dude
Safety of flight issue,huh? That a new one too me. Gotta remember that when I have 162 angry faces in front of me!
And I hate to tell you,15 mins is not a insane amount of time turn an airplane. My personal record is 11 mins(137 off/137+3 on,and a full crew change)....and I did it to get the airplane back on schedule beacuse I have a really bad hang up of sending an airplane to the next station late.
IMHO,answer B is the wuss way out. By picking that answer you put yourself and your crew out of position for whatever you might have been scheduled for the next day,you also put an airplane out of position which not only screwed your original 150 passngers,but the passengers that were scheduled to fly on that aircraft the next day.You're right,Captain's are paid to make those kind of decisions, but they are also paid to make sure passengers get from point A to point B. Most professional pilots I know would just "kick the tires and light the fires" given that scenario. I guess alot of that rubbed off on me.
Safety of flight issue,huh? That a new one too me. Gotta remember that when I have 162 angry faces in front of me!
And I hate to tell you,15 mins is not a insane amount of time turn an airplane. My personal record is 11 mins(137 off/137+3 on,and a full crew change)....and I did it to get the airplane back on schedule beacuse I have a really bad hang up of sending an airplane to the next station late.
IMHO,answer B is the wuss way out. By picking that answer you put yourself and your crew out of position for whatever you might have been scheduled for the next day,you also put an airplane out of position which not only screwed your original 150 passngers,but the passengers that were scheduled to fly on that aircraft the next day.You're right,Captain's are paid to make those kind of decisions, but they are also paid to make sure passengers get from point A to point B. Most professional pilots I know would just "kick the tires and light the fires" given that scenario. I guess alot of that rubbed off on me.
sbe
Well-Known Member
Re: 737 dude
_dude,
for some reason whenever I read your posts I get this mental picture of a bunch of JetBlue employees holding hands in a circle around the nosegear of a blue-tailed A320, singing "Kumbaya".
It's unfortunate that you choose not to listen to what anyone else says. I can promise you, things aren't as perfect at the LCCs as you paint them to be, nor are things as horrible at the majors as you describe either.
My boyfriend is a ramp sup for SWA. Yes, their approach to getting things done and in a timely fashion is unique, but I called him just now (taking R2F's lead, I went "right to the source"
) and asked "Hey, has a pilot ever thrown bags on a flight you worked?"
"Not that I remember, why?"
"ok, thanks honey, talk to you tonight."
Yes people from all divisions have to help make things happen in extenuating circumstances - I remember a couple of weeks ago, he had a night from h*ll in which some dude ran a provo truck into the leading edge of a -200's wing, rendering it unairworthy and causing them to scramble to get a plane ferried up for the next morning. Not minutes later, they had a plane coming from PHX have an engine-out and make an emergency landing at ICT. Then they got a plane ready for a crew to fly to ICT to get said pax home. Luckily this all happened late in the evening and they had several terminating flights already at the gates.
He worked till 3am along with everyone else and got everything done, but the moral to the story is if everyone works together doing their respective jobs, it works. It's called TEAMWORK, and organization. The exact reason I don't try to do an engineer's work here at the office, but if they want a smack-up presentation to go with a proposal, they know who to call.
Sarah
_dude,
for some reason whenever I read your posts I get this mental picture of a bunch of JetBlue employees holding hands in a circle around the nosegear of a blue-tailed A320, singing "Kumbaya".
It's unfortunate that you choose not to listen to what anyone else says. I can promise you, things aren't as perfect at the LCCs as you paint them to be, nor are things as horrible at the majors as you describe either.
My boyfriend is a ramp sup for SWA. Yes, their approach to getting things done and in a timely fashion is unique, but I called him just now (taking R2F's lead, I went "right to the source"
"Not that I remember, why?"
"ok, thanks honey, talk to you tonight."
Yes people from all divisions have to help make things happen in extenuating circumstances - I remember a couple of weeks ago, he had a night from h*ll in which some dude ran a provo truck into the leading edge of a -200's wing, rendering it unairworthy and causing them to scramble to get a plane ferried up for the next morning. Not minutes later, they had a plane coming from PHX have an engine-out and make an emergency landing at ICT. Then they got a plane ready for a crew to fly to ICT to get said pax home. Luckily this all happened late in the evening and they had several terminating flights already at the gates.
He worked till 3am along with everyone else and got everything done, but the moral to the story is if everyone works together doing their respective jobs, it works. It's called TEAMWORK, and organization. The exact reason I don't try to do an engineer's work here at the office, but if they want a smack-up presentation to go with a proposal, they know who to call.
Sarah