Eagle pilots reject 'or else' offer

amorris311 said:
Have they sent it to the pilot group. Seems like they sent bullet points. I personally hate bullet points since they don't tell the truth. Final language is final language. Just my 65 cents.
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We got bullets on an AIP that is *not* a TA. The MEC has decided that this is the best they can derive from the company for now, and has put it to the pilots to vote.

We will not vote until we have actual language, which is a process done by the MEC and the company, and may take some time.

Once we have final language, only then will we vote.

I don't expect it to get past that- and the landscape may change in the meantime.
 
Firebird2XC said:
We got bullets on an AIP that is *not* a TA. The MEC has decided that this is the best they can derive from the company for now, and has put it to the pilots to vote.

We will not vote until we have actual language, which is a process done by the MEC and the company, and may take some time.

Once we have final language, only then will we vote.

I don't expect it to get past that- and the landscape may change in the meantime.
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I know how it rolls. Believe me, I know. Long 5 years.
 
Firebird2XC said:
It'll never get past the main pilot group.

From the initial reaction I'm hearing on the line, the crewroom, and various message boards, this just made the pilot group angrier, and will likely fail.

.
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Same story.. Different day. It will overwhelmingly pass just like the last time. Guaranteed.

Everyone was extremely pissed with the bankruptcy TA, everyone was voting NO, all the unofficial polls showed like 90% no votes. Cockpit talk you couldn't find a yes voter.. Then It passed overwhelmingly. They weren't even threatening to shut us down (comair 2) with that one.. The threat was just the term sheet. Now the threat is the curb. What do you really think these same guys will do.. Hmmmm. You have a very large group of people that want the doors to stay open long enough to eject to AA. Do you really think they will risk torpedoing that? The lifers aren't gonna vote it down.. They will do pretty much anything to keep their jobs safe. I've been talking to plenty of them in the training center and the super senior line guys. The super junior that can easily make lateral moves and would NO, cant even vote anyway. What does that leave you with? The same 30% NO voters we always have.. Mainly mid to senior FO's and junior CA's.

When people fear their livelihood is on the line they talk tough all up until they cast their vote in private. Then this garbage passes. Management knows this, and they exploit it. You want to get more NO votes.. Make the vote details public so everyone can see exactly who votes for what and who changes their tune come voting time.. Who exactly the sellouts are.. That would change everything.. But that will never happen..

I have no faith in this group anymore. Or any others in this airline industry. It is every man for himself come voting time, seen it happen over and over again. Just Watch.

It's become so easily predictable it's scAAry.
 
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Firebird2XC said:
Forest for the trees. The AIP passed by a narrow margin. It'll never get past the main pilot group.

The MEC met the company, negotiated, and this was the best the company would give. So now they look to us for the Go/ No Go. You can't put it on the MEC for giving us a call to make when they think no more can be done before that.

From the initial reaction I'm hearing on the line, the crewroom, and various message boards, this just made the pilot group angrier, and will likely fail.

What you fail to divine is that while the previous MEC administration was inclined to try to steer the pilot group, the current Chair and Council are taking their cues from the pilot group- they remember where they come from, and if the company actually makes good on the threat we all go down.

You can split hairs all you want, but the final point is that the company's actions have only succeeded in galvanizing the Eagle pilot group.

It doesn't matter if it's the tip of the spear or the angry hordes that swat it down- it's going down.

Eagle pilots are finally unified.

And we're pissed.
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So between your initial post stating that the "Eagle Pilots Reject Or Else Offer" and now, the MEC has changed hands to a new administration?

If this team took their cues from the pilot group, as you say, shouldn't the offer have failed by a vote of 9-0? Or, at worst 5-4?

Seems like you have 5 LEC reps who are willing to give in. Do they speak for the Eagle group (as you say at the beginning), or do they not?

I'm only splitting hairs because you chose to state that the pilots rejected the deal. That was a stretch of the truth - the pilot representatives rejected the deal. Now that the representatives have accepted the deal, all of a sudden the pilot's haven't accepted, it's going for a vote.
 
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cencal83406 said:
So between your initial post stating that the "Eagle Pilots Reject Or Else Offer" and now, the MEC has changed hands to a new administration?

If this team took their cues from the pilot group, as you say, shouldn't the offer have failed by a vote of 9-0? Or, at worst 5-4?

Seems like you have 5 LEC reps who are willing to give in. Do they speak for the Eagle group (as you say at the beginning), or do they not?

I'm only splitting hairs because you chose to state that the pilots rejected the deal. That was a stretch of the truth - the pilot representatives rejected the deal. Now that the representatives have accepted the deal, all of a sudden the pilot's haven't accepted, it's going for a vote.
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The pilots rejected the last deal. This is the counter offer, which, while considerably improved, is still sorely lacking. I don't have time to explain all the politics and strategies of my pilot group- if you're not going to keep up, don't stick your nose in it.
 
embraer07 said:
Really? How do you figure?

I'm not saying it's all ponies and rainbows, but it is leaps and bounds better than PSA's.
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It looks that way... initially. But it's a Trojan Horse.

See also- in terms of total airframes, PSA got a huge payday. I forget the numbers, but their fleet is much smaller than Eagle's, so the new airplanes will cover most of their pilot group. Eagle has well over 200+ airplanes, IIRC, and 60 replacement jets won't nearly touch that.
 
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RPM said:
Same story.. Different day. It will overwhelmingly pass just like the last time. Guaranteed.

Everyone was extremely pissed with the bankruptcy TA, everyone was voting NO, all the unofficial polls showed like 90% no votes. Cockpit talk you couldn't find a yes voter.. Then It passed overwhelmingly. They weren't even threatening to shut us down (comair 2) with that one.. The threat was just the term sheet. Now the threat is the curb. What do you really think these same guys will do.. Hmmmm. You have a very large group of people that want the doors to stay open long enough to eject to AA. Do you really think they will risk torpedoing that? The lifers aren't gonna vote it down.. They will do pretty much anything to keep their jobs safe. I've been talking to plenty of them in the training center and the super senior line guys. The super junior that can easily make lateral moves and would NO, cant even vote anyway. What does that leave you with? The same 30% NO voters we always have.. Mainly mid to senior FO's and junior CA's.

When people fear their livelihood is on the line they talk tough all up until they cast their vote in private. Then this garbage passes. Management knows this, and they exploit it. You want to get more NO votes.. Make the vote details public so everyone can see exactly who votes for what and who changes their tune come voting time.. Who exactly the sellouts are.. That would change everything.. But that will never happen..

I have no faith in this group anymore. Or any others in this airline industry. It is every man for himself come voting time, seen it happen over and over again. Just Watch.

It's become so easily predictable it's scAAry.
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Ya see, it's apathetic sniveling like this that gets things like this passed. Stand up and sound off and take a stand.
 
amorris311 said:
I know how it rolls. Believe me, I know. Long 5 years.
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Aye. The point of this thread was to show that Eagle pilots weren't going to knuckle under at the first threat- we made a counter offer, and they suddenly sweetened the deal a lot. The problem is, in my opinion, is that it's a Trojan Horse, and creates the 'stepping stone' regional scenario again. This in itself is a trap, and can be leveraged against pilots in the long term.

People think because the MEC let it see the pilot group it's a done deal- hardly. It's still being codified into language, and then that language will be presented as an AIP- and then, if and only if it passes a vote by the pilot group at large will it be a 'TA'. (This is mostly for the folks reading along that don't have a lot of union work background...)

Some dolt in the FA ranks released a press release touting Eagle pilot having saved the airline as if the final decision is made. It certainly isn't. We are, however, negotiating into more positive language rather than "this or else."

Personally though, the more I look at it the less I like it. I'm going with my original stance. NO.

NO CONCESSIONS. NO WAVERING!
 
embraer07 said:
Really? How do you figure?

I'm not saying it's all ponies and rainbows, but it is leaps and bounds better than PSA's.
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Everything is exactly the same as the PSA deal except...

PSA didn't get their longevity frozen for 5 years and *if* the total number of airframes that are promised show up on both properties, there is a much larger percentage growth at PSA than at Eagle.

Not knocking you specifically but you thinking the deal is much better than PSA's just goes to show that most people complaining about the "concessions" PSA took really don't even know what the deal was.
 
Firebird2XC said:
The pilots rejected the last deal. This is the counter offer, which, while considerably improved, is still sorely lacking. I don't have time to explain all the politics and strategies of my pilot group- if you're not going to keep up, don't stick your nose in it.
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The appearance is that you manipulated the truth to make it sound better, like a politician. Now you are claiming politics and strategy for misleading us.

To top it off, you have a terse attitude when called on it.

It all makes sense now.
 
cencal83406 said:
The appearance is that you manipulated the truth to make it sound better, like a politician. Now you are claiming politics and strategy for misleading us.

To top it off, you have a terse attitude when called on it.

It all makes sense now.
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Don't you have a Failboat to captain somewhere?

Just because you don't understand doesn't mean I mislead you. Learn to read.

You criticize the Eagle pilot group, after the way Pinnacle just rolled over?
 
Dugie8 said:
Good luck to you guys. I know the draining feeling it is to be constantly fighting management over stuff that should be common sense.
For what it's worth I'm pulling for you guys.
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Thanks man.

Based on what I'm seeing so far, if this is a landslide it'll be for the 'No' vote. There exists the possibility that the fearful will say one thing but vote another, but based on the volume of people touting No votes I think we're going to hold the line.
 
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