Michael95U
Well-Known Member
Did you forget the
tag at the end there? That statement is going to get you in trouble. Not the most PC thing to say.
Dont Attend ATP
- Thread starter tiredofshoveling
- Start date
Did you forget the
tag at the end there? That statement is going to get you in trouble. Not the most PC thing to say.anavalairman2
New Member
"Good luck to anyone going to any accellerated program right now, with the way the industry is there isn't anything going fast except furloughs, cutbacks and when your gonna pay that loan back."
I like the idea of going accellerated right now, fast way to become an instructor and start building time so when the hiring does begin again, you'll be up to bat.
I like the idea of going accellerated right now, fast way to become an instructor and start building time so when the hiring does begin again, you'll be up to bat.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Making fun of someone?
I don't think I pointed specifically towards one person. Just the overall general mindset of most "get there quick" individuals.
My righteous attitude has nothing to do with what equipment I'm flying. It should be pretty damn clear that I've held these same opinions (fly at a small FBO, or FBO-like establishment rather than a get there quick 90 day program - quality vs. quickness in my book) for some time - thanks in large part to those who pointed me in the right direction a little over 2 years ago.
Nevertheless. . .my explanations have never really stuck in your mind anyway Mike.
Flight81
OO BRO FO
Nope.... It's common sense. Be ready when they call. It's being ahead of the curve. Think about it, when things pick up again then lots will be rushing to get their ratings and hours to get hired on. Those that get it done now will already be in line to get hired. Behind those furloughed of course...
BillH
New Member
<Edited>Did you forget the
BillH
New Member
Sure if you can find a job to keep yourself flying in the mean time... Consider yourself lucky today if your making money with your tickets...
Flight81
OO BRO FO
I suppose your right.... However, like I've always said, you had better have a plane and a solid understanding of what your getting into when going to a school like this at a time like this. If you don't, then it's your fault for any hardship you may encounter, not ATP's fault. Sometimes I feel as those who talk bad about the school didn't have a plane or take serious the recommendations laid out by ATP. Just my opinion.
I guess I just don't get the knocking a path to the right seat of a regional jet. At the end of the day you uhhhh end up in the right seat of a regional jet. The folks that "got there quickly" probably have a better chance of not getting furloughed. If you are going to go the slow route and get a better quality learning experience, which I advocate by the way, I just wonder why you'd settle for that kind of a job. Sounds harsh but in all reality why would you want to share a seniority list with the likes of people you hate the way they go there.
turbomax97
What can brown do for you?
Yes the pro-rated charge is steep but last I saw a few weeks ago it was $375 per hour of Seminole time + $125 per hour of FTD... You're being kind of outrageous with your example. Also, as I think we can all agree, the instruction you receive really depends on if your CFI felt like doing his job or not.
That being said - It's hard to advocate doing any kind of accelerated program for the next few years. There's no point.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
You know, I sort of take offense to that. By the time I finished up instructing for them I had about 800 of dual given and 80 or so sign offs (plus a whole bunch of ATP rating non sign offs). I just went back through my records and I can count on one hand the number of guys I taught to "just pass the test" and those were mostly military guys who were going to be going back to flying their F16 in a completely different environment anyways. I did a hell of a lot more then teach just to the test. I covered the PTS. You can be damn sure I made sure they knew what the examiners were likely to do, but that was not the extent of the training. No "real world" experience? No "creative thinking"? I think not. I wouldn't dare put my name in a students log book as being ready for a ride unless I was sure they could hack it AFTER the ride.
You're painting ATP's instructors with an awfully large brush and it's sort of ticking me off.
3green
Well-Known Member
This is spot on. This school is like any other, it provides a service and its up to the consumer to make the choice. FBO would be more prudent with the lack of hiring right now at the regional level. I just think its much wiser to spend less for training in times like these with the industry at a virtual standstill in terms of hiring... think thats economics 101
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Well Mike, you bring up some great points. First and foremost though, I wouldn't say I settled for any job I've ever held. I'm not that desperate, lol.
Overall though man, this is obviously taking the thread off track. . .but. . .my personal options were that I didn't want to commute, and the availability and overall increased time it would take for me to personally get to the goal I set for myself and my wife when I left the military would not have been met. I already had enough set backs and the timing just was not going to work out if I continued down the path I was.
I think I did everything the correct way, and I didn't get hired at some scumbag operation (although it could be said all 121 regional operations are scumbag - debatable though).
Looking back though, I miss GA flying greatly and would enjoy it a great deal to get back into a light twin / single flying something other than student pilots around.
On the other side of the coin, I greatly appreciate the structure that 121 flying provides. It's the structure that I needed and desired.
Who knows what the future holds. . .perhaps I'm only building time so I can meet 135 minimums (eh?) . . . or perhaps I'm just enjoying the flying I have going on right now and will in the long term enjoy it even more. Who knows.
But you're right. . .I went through class with some of guys who went to ATP. I have to say though, they're great guys, two of the four were instructors (even more respect), the other two did the short cut CRJ course which it should be obviously clear is not something I support - nevertheless - they're both good guys to be around and I'm certainly in no position to evaluate their abilities as pilots, but that doesn't mean that I didn't give them just a little piece of my mind.
It should also be obviously clear that thanks to the wisdom gained from JetCareers I've developed some extremely pro-Labor, Pro-Professional Respect ideas, staying away from the actual scumbag operations (must they really be named?). Many of which includes the hatred towards PFJ/PFT establishments, and the negative impact of CRJ Courses, and poor labor relations at certain companies.
Because of these opinions and stances I ventured into this career with the knowledge to not devalue one's self by paying even more for training that one would get when hired by a company. If only more people could realize that, yes. . .it's the regionals - and it sucks - but spending 3-15 grand more for some course that you're not really getting any flight time out of, much less a real FAA certification is really just pouring money down the drain. All for what? 150-200 seniority places? That's nice if you were hired in 2005 or 2006. But if you were hiring in 2007 you're still close to the very bottom of a number of the companies that are putting, or will soon be, putting guys out on the street. Now what did that RJ Course get you? Now what did that 90 day PPL-CFI get you?
At least if (when) I'm sent out on the street, I won't have an extra 15 grand worth of debt hanging over my head - and I'll have some actual fond memories of GA flying that I can think back on instead of a blur of 90 days of go go go flying where I didn't really become an aviator but rather just another pilot factory widget.
Anyway - I'm off to watch Swingers with the old lady, and enjoy a brew.
tiredofshoveling
Well-Known Member
I think I started quite the post. Just a note about 200 replies and 5000 views are the most for any thread here on ATP forum. I'm up to about 75 and over 500 in about week.
Incidentally since we are a "country of whiners" regarding my instrument training my instructor was mia for the first 5 out of 21 days that I received at ATP. Wasn't my instructors fault, but I should of been set up with another instructor. That may not sound like a lot but when you have that limited time its good to get going asap. I ended up flying 7 hours 2 days before my checkride and 6 the day before, plus the flight plan. Out of a total of about 35 hours 13 in the last 2 days I wouldn't call efficient use of training time. I don't mind flying a lot but should have been more spaced out when you are training, to much is not productive.
And I never said I wanted to know exactly how the checkride was gonna go, but it would be nice for your instructor to sit down with you and talk about what might occur and what he has seen in the past from a given examiner. Thats just good checkride strategy.
TOS
Keep up the excellent posts, I'm learning ALOT
Incidentally since we are a "country of whiners" regarding my instrument training my instructor was mia for the first 5 out of 21 days that I received at ATP. Wasn't my instructors fault, but I should of been set up with another instructor. That may not sound like a lot but when you have that limited time its good to get going asap. I ended up flying 7 hours 2 days before my checkride and 6 the day before, plus the flight plan. Out of a total of about 35 hours 13 in the last 2 days I wouldn't call efficient use of training time. I don't mind flying a lot but should have been more spaced out when you are training, to much is not productive.
And I never said I wanted to know exactly how the checkride was gonna go, but it would be nice for your instructor to sit down with you and talk about what might occur and what he has seen in the past from a given examiner. Thats just good checkride strategy.
TOS
Keep up the excellent posts, I'm learning ALOT
I attended and finished ATP. Started with my PPL all the way through my CFI ratings and can say that it was the worst $39000 I ever invested into my flying career.
If I were given a chance to do it all over again I wouldn't think twice about doing it locally but unfortunately I don't have that luxury.
3engine: Only thing I have to say to you is that you have serious attitude adjustment coming your way and its going to leave a bruise on that ego of yours. Good luck with your career.
If I were given a chance to do it all over again I wouldn't think twice about doing it locally but unfortunately I don't have that luxury.
3engine: Only thing I have to say to you is that you have serious attitude adjustment coming your way and its going to leave a bruise on that ego of yours. Good luck with your career.
SatelliteBeachPilot
Well-Known Member
I choose ATP over my old FBO at Merritt Island because I did want to get through in 90 days. I know what the industry is like, in this industry you can't be scared by slowdowns in hiring, there will always be waves in the aviation industry. I will most likely go back and teach at my old FBO and be their primary multi instructor when I get back. I will also be working to help ferry some small twins for a friend who is very involved in aircraft sales. There are many outlets in the aviation world, I don't know if I will ever wind up working for an airline, but at least I will be qualified if I want to.
ATP's firehose method fits my style, I always did better in college during the summer when I was taking enough classes to keep me totally swamped by school. I guess, to each his own though.
ATP's firehose method fits my style, I always did better in college during the summer when I was taking enough classes to keep me totally swamped by school. I guess, to each his own though.
Don't get me wrong, I performed extremely well while attending ATP (finished ppl+90 day course in 120 days) but the reason for it is because I had a ton of help from mentors outside the program. It seemed as though instructors would find the guys that were able to keep up with the pace and left the guys who needed a little extra attention behind. It was sad to see my career partner bust 2 checkrides because of something the instructor could have spent a few more hours on. He eventually was given the boot even though his short comings were caused by the instructorS. I guess making sure we knew what order the DE would want to see the maneuvers in was a little more important.
I never thought it was a good instructor/bad instructor issue. It was more the ill informed, lack of experience instructors that caused the issue.
I never thought it was a good instructor/bad instructor issue. It was more the ill informed, lack of experience instructors that caused the issue.
DenverPilot8
Well-Known Member
As I was going to attend ATP in March of this year I can say that I had weighted the pros/Cons of ATP Vs and FBO. But through all my analysis I can't understand why anyone would pay the money to go there NOW. In the current enviornment the cost justification seems crazy now (kinda was before the downturn too).
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
So I wonder what has changed? 5 years ago it was VERY rare for a student to get booted out of the program. In the entire almost 2 years I was at ATP (between being a student and instructing) I think I saw maybe 3 guys get let go. And one of them was for drinking IN an airplane. Back then it was more common for the instructor to get kicked out then the problem student.
Now it seems pretty common for people to be let go with some regularity. Has the tolerances ATP has gotten that much higher? Has the skills/maturity/dedication of the students gotten that much lower? Is the quality of instruction that much worse?
Anybody?
Now it seems pretty common for people to be let go with some regularity. Has the tolerances ATP has gotten that much higher? Has the skills/maturity/dedication of the students gotten that much lower? Is the quality of instruction that much worse?
Anybody?
Airdale
Well-Known Member
Wow, 3 years since I went to ATP and the same arguments are being made! Awesome!! :laff:
Trust me, get over a year experience at the Airlines and you'll forget all about ATP and their crappy program, then you'll realize the whole idea they paint in your head about the Airlines is a joke. And the agreements with airlines? Thats a marketing joke too.
The quality of training you get at ATP is DIRECTLY related to your instructor. I got lucky and had GREAT instructors when I did the 10-month program. I felt like my instructors gave me some great ground and air instruction. A lot of people I know got stuck with CFI's who were lazy and never lifted a marker on the board.
I agree with Bobbyduck, you can't blanket all of ATP instructors. I had good instructors and I tried to pass that on to my students as well.
Looking back, the experience I had at ATP was preparation enough to fly a Beech 1900 in the Northeast, but my first job on the 1900 is where I REALLY learned to fly.
Where you get your training is such a small part of your career. I'd opt for a really good instructor at a local school where the price is much cheaper. I used to advocate for ATP until I got some experience at the Airlines and realized that ATP was mostly just marketing hype. The multi time helped me get the first job, but I feel kind of stupid for not trying to get the stuff done cheaper.
Now I'm getting furloughed and still have that loan from ATP.
Trust me, get over a year experience at the Airlines and you'll forget all about ATP and their crappy program, then you'll realize the whole idea they paint in your head about the Airlines is a joke. And the agreements with airlines? Thats a marketing joke too.
The quality of training you get at ATP is DIRECTLY related to your instructor. I got lucky and had GREAT instructors when I did the 10-month program. I felt like my instructors gave me some great ground and air instruction. A lot of people I know got stuck with CFI's who were lazy and never lifted a marker on the board.
I agree with Bobbyduck, you can't blanket all of ATP instructors. I had good instructors and I tried to pass that on to my students as well.
Looking back, the experience I had at ATP was preparation enough to fly a Beech 1900 in the Northeast, but my first job on the 1900 is where I REALLY learned to fly.
Where you get your training is such a small part of your career. I'd opt for a really good instructor at a local school where the price is much cheaper. I used to advocate for ATP until I got some experience at the Airlines and realized that ATP was mostly just marketing hype. The multi time helped me get the first job, but I feel kind of stupid for not trying to get the stuff done cheaper.
Now I'm getting furloughed and still have that loan from ATP.
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