Does coming from a 141 school matter?

Derg said:
Yes and no.

It really depends on who is doing the hiring at the time you're looking.

I'm a big believer in state schools and training on the side instead of collegiate aviation. However, my employer favors collegiate aviation and the structure of 141 — why that matters after a few thousand hours and at this level is somewhat befuddling, but it's what I was told by Caesar in the coliseum.

It matters to people who it matters to. It doesn't to those that don't think it matters.
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It's interesting to hear this coming from a Riddle guy, too.

The bottom line is there's no "magic" way to make a good pilot and airman; some of the best and some of the, less than stellar ones that I know have come out of 141 institutions, and the same goes for Part 61 institutions. Attitude, to me, is a more effective predictor of safety (or your efficacy on the flight deck) than almost anything else.
 
In some instances 141 could look worse. Lots of experienced aviators are now running into 'experienced' aviators who have never really 'experienced' anything outside of the box. There are strains of pilots who have gone from uber controlled 141 arenas to uber controlled 121 environments and have very little 'color outside the lines' flying experience. They have no idea how much is too much if it isn't in the syllabus, manual, checklist.

Try to have at least some experience where YOU have to figure ou go/no go decisions, make your own policies, procedures, etc. It's analagous to a homeschooled christian who goes to a very controlled christian college environment next. Then he enters the world as an educated professional who probably has never made any decisions for himself, or at least very few.
 
I trained wholly under part 61, Both were 141 schools also, and so I rubbed shoulders with people in uniform, but I was on my own path, and leapfrogged a few on the way. I saved up funds and took leave to train for a few weeks each year.

After PPL, 100 training days and $50k got me to CFI x3. Not recommended for everyone, but it worked for me.

I'm finding networking good fun, though it is more with classmates and their contacts than the feeder system some larger schools have.

Part 61 gets me some college credit at ERAU if I want to trade that in, and no R-ATP, but that's not that important in the long run.

I've seen good pilots and bad pilots through both systems.

Alex.
 
As a foreign who trained in the US, having attended a 141 school makes a difference when applying to companies around the world. But that doesn't necessary mean 141 trained pilots are better then from a 61.
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
Most hiring departments care, as there's a proven correlation between 141 training and success in airline training.
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I would not say most, but some at the fee for departure carriers. And the more of a career orientated airline you go to, I would say that some becomes most don't care if it is 61 or 141.


Before I get flamed, I'm not saying that part 61 guys are bad and 141 guys are good. I'm just saying that when you look at the data, on average 141 guys require fewer extra sims and wash out less frequently.
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While SOME regionals MAY keep track of that data, I doubt most career orientated airlines do.


I would also say that if you have an interview and an employer is really concerned about if you went to a 141 or 61 school beyond a talking point, the interview isn't going well.
 
SpiceWeasel said:
Delta cares. Straight from Delta hiring department trained individual working for Endeavor.
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I hardly think anyone from Endeavour it's qualified to speak about who wants what. While waiting on the jet bridge within the last week, they (Endeavour) hired only 4 guys into the ETD program, and have put less than 30 through training this last year, according to the captain who was hitching a ride. They ran a class with one guy, ONE guy, because no one is showing up there.
 
mshunter said:
I hardly think anyone from Endeavour it's qualified to speak about who wants what. While waiting on the jet bridge within the last week, they (Endeavour) hired only 4 guys into the ETD program, and have put less than 30 through training this last year, according to the captain who was hitching a ride. They ran a class with one guy, ONE guy, because no one is showing up there.
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I'm pretty sure he's qualified. He was trained by the "man" in Delta hiring "AK". He's in class at Delta right now too. He did not go through a 141 school himself. By the way, it's Endeavor.
 
Inverted25 said:
Copilot felt that if you came from a 141 school you were superior in employers eyes. His argument was that if you weren't from a 141 school you would have a hard time getting hired at places because part 61 guys weren't as smart.
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Probably the most ridiculous thing I've read all day (And I read all 7 pages of the 'Can I be hired with a restraining order' thread).

I trained at a mom and pop FBO. They were 141 certified and I did my instrument 141. Everything else was done part 61. Never failed a test/checkride. So far I've been an instructor, flew survey, was a captain at a fractional, and now I'm at a regional. Nobody has ever asked if I trained in a 141 or 61 environment, and I doubt that anyone actually cares. Once you get to the level of career jobs, it's ridiculous that something like that would ever matter.
 
SpiceWeasel said:
I'm pretty sure he's qualified. He was trained by the "man" in Delta hiring "AK". He's in class at Delta right now too. He did not go through a 141 school himself. By the way, it's Endeavor.
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Endeavor is the airline; Endeavour is the Shuttle, I suppose.
 
Seggy said:
I would not say most, but some at the fee for departure carriers. And the more of a career orientated airline you go to, I would say that some becomes most don't care if it is 61 or 141.
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The part of my post that you cut out said exactly the same thing. The further you get from your training, the less it matters in comparison to other qualifications.

While SOME regionals MAY keep track of that data, I doubt most career orientated airlines do.


I would also say that if you have an interview and an employer is really concerned about if you went to a 141 or 61 school beyond a talking point, the interview isn't going well.
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I find it hard to believe that any 121 carrier does not track training success. We tracked hiring data with respect to training success VERY thoroughly at ASA. Sure, maybe it isn't universal, but any company with a decent training department will.

The 141 vs 61 didn't come up during the interview. It was one of the things that got your resume out of the tall stack and into the short stack. It was just one of many data points. It wasn't a huge deal, but all things being equal, a 141 guy was interviewed before a 61 guy. Of course, that was back when supply wasn't an issue.
 
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The reality has been covered. People who know wtf they're doing come from all backgrounds. But since I'll just be making up for those who have said the opposite in the aggregate, I, myself, have found that people who learned to operate aviation appliances by, you know, being given the keys and either surviving or not (aka Part 61) are not only in the aggregate better at the parts of flying that are important (if any are...eg. Not Crashing), but are also cooler people with better stories because they've usually done other stuff. I still love you, Riddle-Aces-Who-Don't-Suck. Just want to make that clear.

Even if I have a certain simmering low-level degree of contempt for you. I kid, I kid! Mostly.
 
jwp_145 said:
I was at a party in TUlsa back in flight school days. It was one of those pilot sausage fests with about a 30% ratio of townie girls thrown in. As I'm walking from the keg back to the group of chicks I was with I heard this conversation take place amongst a group a guys so lame I wouldn't be surprised if they had E6Bs in their pockets (also all Spartan students living in the spartan apartments)

Spartan dick: Ya I was #2 in line today for 1L and this idiot in front of me was taking forever. He just kept screwing up all his radio calls.
Spartan dick's buddy: Ja he was probably from TCC or something I bet...
Spartan Dick: Ya bro you could TOTALLY tell that he was a Part 61 pilot.
All Spartan Dicks: HARHARHAR (backs slapped).

I quickly proceeded to insult them all in one fell swoop and pointed out there were girls at the party yet they were jerking each other off.
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Ha, this is a hilarious story. I finished up there, and I'm currently working there, and from the sound of this story and from what I've heard about the past this sounds about right. I started Part 61, school went bankrupt, and I finished 141 at Spartan like I said before. It doesn't make a difference as long as your safe, you can fly, and your taught right. I've seen Part 141 guys that would lean the mixture if the engine was running hot :-/ and I've seen part 61 guys that shouldn't be flying a kite in a field. While I work at a part 141 school I do make my lessons fun with my students, they may not be your typical weekend flyers but its not a nazi camp either. I also take them up when its actual, even if its at night with my instrument guys to get them the experience that they will see out in the "real world".
 
Boris Badenov said:
The reality has been covered. People who know wtf they're doing come from all backgrounds. But since I'll just be making up for those who have said the opposite in the aggregate, I, myself, have found that people who learned to operate aviation appliances by, you know, being given the keys and either surviving or not (aka Part 61) are not only in the aggregate better at the parts of flying that are important (if any are...eg. Not Crashing), but are also cooler people with better stories because they've usually done other stuff. I still love you, Riddle-Aces-Who-Don't-Suck. Just want to make that clear.

Even if I have a certain simmering low-level degree of contempt for you. I kid, I kid! Mostly.
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For the record, I didn't say that 141 pilots are better in the aggregate. I said they have fewer training failures at 121 carriers (in the aggregate). I don't think that means they are better pilots. They are just better at jumping through hoops, and more accustomed to the training style of an airline.

I did my training part 61 and 141. I was amazed at the 141 guys, and how they didn't know how to have fun flying. It was literally all business for them. I found it to be sad. They had never just rented a plane and flown around for the hell of it.
 
Inverted25 said:
So this was a debate at dinner the other night on a trip. Copilot felt that if you came from a 141 school you were superior in employers eyes. His argument was that if you weren't from a 141 school you would have a hard time getting hired at places because part 61 guys weren't as smart.

Obviously I don't agree being a part 61 guy but what has your guys careers shown? Does 141 matter in the part 91/135/121 world? Please when answering give specific examples if you can and what your background is in both schooling and aviation.

Ill start. I haven't seen any bias in aviation yet. The argument that 141 guys are smarter is ridiculous. I personally feel that if done right part 61 can produce a better pilot. For example during my part 61 training and time building I flew aerobatics, got a commercial glider rating, got a commercial seaplane rating, flew lots of different tailwheel planes. All things I feel broadened my bag of experience from which to draw from compared to a cookie cutter part 141 graduate. Now I am not anti 141 by any means. A few of the best pilots I have flown with have come from 141 schools. I just don't believe that 141 have any significant advantage over part 61 if the part 61 guy is willing to go above and beyond to get the extra experience.

My background I am 26 and currently am a captain on a King Air B200 in 135 passenger operations.


Please keep responses civil
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Yea, smart enough to shell out 200k for a training that can be done in 45-50k.
 
Part 141 produces guys who color between the lines. Part 61 produces all kinds, including people who can color between the lines. I've yet to meet a 141-trained pilot who also reads Attic Greek or can intelligently discuss whether or not Euclid's 4th Proposition is BS. *shrug* Don't get me wrong, that stuff might not matter at all, in the end. Probably doesn't. But holding one's vocational education up as some sort of mark of Superiority strikes me hysterically funny. Sort of akin to the chimney-sweep ridiculing the engineer who built the house for his failure to understand the nuances of chimney maintenance.
 
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