Direct Entry at US majors

B737FLY said:
statusseeker1 said:
I’m just curious why you want to be a captain so badly and why a first officer job at a legacy isn’t a possibility?
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One of the things I hated most about being an FO was flying with non standard and below average captains. Old guard non CRM types. The best thing about upgrading was never having to deal with those types and making efforts to never become one of those types. I like the responsibility of command, I like helping FOs develop and grow (to the extent of my experience). I love managing the flight my way and take great pleasure in arriving early, saving fuel and giving the passengers a comfortable ride. Worked my ass off to upgrade... why would I ever want to accept a right seat again?
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You are what us yanks would call a “tool” or a “troll” Cheers
 
Acrofox said:
I cannot fake it without compromising who I am, and I will not do that.

I am willing to accept the consequences of that.

I appreciate the concern, and let me be clear—I don't hold anyone else's decisions against them. I don't resent our exemplar cheerleader unless s/he decides that her success is based on merit alone.

Secondarily, I do not embrace "Greed is good." That is an attitude I will always fight to change.

"They won't be coming for money. Not the best of them. They'll be coming for Damascus , which I'm going to give them."

-Fox
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So, I understand where you’re coming from, but let me ask you this: Is there nothing, no subject that interests you, that you haven’t thought “Gee, Foxy, I’d sure like to know a lot more about that!”

Would it be less distasteful if you actually learned something from the experience? Learn something that you actually want and get to check a box.
 
Cptnchia said:
So, I understand where you’re coming from, but let me ask you this: Is there nothing, no subject that interests you, that you haven’t thought “Gee, Foxy, I’d sure like to know a lot more about that!”
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That's me every single day!

I'm always learning. I subscribe to several sources of online courses, and pick up random ones now and again. I buy and devour books, dig through information from all across the internet, and in short, I never stop learning.

As far as college goes, yes. I wouldn't find it distasteful if I got a degree for learning stuff, or for stuff I already know. I can, however, do without the scam of $200 textbooks, $$$ tuition, NN credit hours 'on campus' required to graduate (read: $$$$$), the amount of time everything takes, and, in short, the whole 'college' part.

There are some things that are best learned in a college setting, which is why I have a decent number of credit hours in music composition and theory, audio engineering, etc. But to be frank, while I enjoyed the courses, my level of knowledge going in was above the level of the class. (Except composition 2 and 3, which were abbreviated but good.)

I wrote more, then deleted it... I'm about to go to sleep, but wanted to reply before I did.

-Fox
 
Acrofox said:
Cptnchia said:
So, I understand where you’re coming from, but let me ask you this: Is there nothing, no subject that interests you, that you haven’t thought “Gee, Foxy, I’d sure like to know a lot more about that!”
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That's me every single day! I'm always learning. I subscribe to several sources of online courses, and pick up random ones now and again. I buy and devour books, dig through information from all across the internet, and in short, I never stop learning. As far as college goes, yes. I wouldn't find it distasteful if I got a degree for learning stuff, or for stuff I already know. I can, however, do without the scam of $200 textbooks, $$$ tuition, NN credit hours 'on campus' required to graduate (read: $$$$$), the amount of time everything takes, and, in short, the whole 'college' part. There are some things that are best learned in a college setting, which is why I have a decent number of credit hours in music composition and theory, audio engineering, etc. But to be frank, while I enjoyed the courses, my level of knowledge going in was above the level of the class. (Except composition 2 and 3, which were abbreviated but good.) I wrote more, then deleted it... I'm about to go to sleep, but wanted to reply before I did. -Fox
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200? Where are you buying textbooks?

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
A couple years ago, I flew with a CA and during introductions he mentioned he had worked at Atlas for 6 yrs and it was the best flying job he ever had. He asked me my background, and I told him it was regional flying and that it was ok - lots of flying multiple legs and long duty days. He nodded and then said (again) that he used to be at Atlas and he misses the job. So having heard this twice now, I had to ask the obvious: if you liked it and it was a good flying job, then why leave to come here? His answer was that he had been a FO all 6 yrs, and that there was no upgrade coming up for him, and that many CAs there were weak, not following SOPs as in doing things differently / their own way, and he couldn't take that kinda environment as FO. So he left and came to my current company, where he upgraded very quickly because of rapid expansion at the time. So no harm, no foul, right?

Wrong.

He lets me take the first leg to Orlando on the transcon. I'm flying, but very quickly I see he has his own very particular quirks and obviously does things his own particular way. Which is ok, he is CA after all. But then a few things stand out. So as an example, we have weather up ahead, I'm looking at it. Without saying a word he keys up the mike and asks for 20 right (which, ok, he can as CA). But then he also pulls the heading bug and turns the plane 20 right. On my leg. Now I find that kinda weird. That's just one example. On every single thing he just does it. And his way. Some not really exactly matching SOP. Some things he has as a technique, he's convinced is SOP (it wasn't) and wants me to do it that way. Again, as long as it's safe, but I'll still point out politely. Anyway, there is no input, no discussion. If I suggest something, no lets do it [that other way]. His CRM was interesting to say the least.

So on the leg back from Orlando the next day, I kinda chuckled inside because I knew right then that at Atlas, his CAs weren't the ones who were weak, or lacked skills, or couldn't make decisions.... No. They were the ones who had to put up with this overbearing, dominant FO who literally ran his own show. And when he saw he couldn't get his way, had no chance of an upgrade, he left at the first chance of an airline with a rapid upgrade time so he could be CA. And I bet you if someone asked him today about moving to a FO seat on another/larger plane, his response would be "why would I ever want to accept a right seat again." My conclusion after flying with him was that without a doubt, he was basically what is referred to in aviation as "Captain right seat" while at Atlas. This is the FO who is overbearing, makes decisions without input/informing the CA, throws the book at the CA for [whatever issue], and basically runs the show from the right seat. Then when they upgrade, they become a real left seat CA and their habits are the same.
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I can 100% relate to your story about "Capt Right Seat". It's funny how after you fly with someone like that, you then realize why their trips are always in open time.
 
BobDDuck said:
Your 4000 hours put you at the low end of competitive applicants for a new hire spot at all the US majors. For the right seat.
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Yeah, I wonder if he even gets that. Not only does he want a job at a major/legacy, but he wants to waltz straight into the left seat. Unless he has a stellar resume other than just “fly left seat 737s” with 4,000 hrs, he’s not gonna get a call from DL/UA/AA. Heck, probably wouldn’t even get a call at Southwest, JetBlue, Alaska, or Hawaiian. He might get one at Frontier or Spirit. I don’t think he realizes just how competitive it is to get a major/legacy airline these days in America.

“Why would I ever want to sit right seat again”

That one sentence right there would throw him on FO’s no fly lists.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
@B737FLY

I can't believe what I'm reading.



So you were a ab-initio type 250-300 hr wonder into a 737.



Flying a total of 6 years, 2 yrs as CA, which means maybe 2-3 yrs as a FO tops. And only 4k total hours? 2 ys as CA means you've probably flown ~1500 hrs PIC and the rest 2000ish as a FO?


Now this is what really floors me:



Dissect this one at a time. One, your complaint isn't about one or two CAs. It sounds like a whole bunch. So either all CAs at your airline are a problem, or you are the problem. Below average CAs? By what standard? And since you only spent at most 2 to 3 yrs as a 737 FO in an airline environment, just what do you really think you know at that stage in the game to decide weak CAs?

"Managing the flight my way" and "why would I ever want to accept a right seat again"


I have news for you: you are "that" guy. Whether you know that or not, you are "that" guy. "That" guy is the CA who thinks he knows best, knows it all, and tries to model his FOs on what he thinks is best. Many times he muddles the line between technique and SOP, and piss off FOs in the process. You are most likely overbearing, on the no fly list of FOs, and your comment of "why would I ever want to accept a right seat again" reeks of entitlement, arrogance, and does NOT sound like a good, sound CA who tries to model FOs.


I have a story from my airline, and my gut feeling is this story kinda applies to you.

A couple years ago, I flew with a CA and during introductions he mentioned he had worked at Atlas for 6 yrs and it was the best flying job he ever had. He asked me my background, and I told him it was regional flying and that it was ok - lots of flying multiple legs and long duty days. He nodded and then said (again) that he used to be at Atlas and he misses the job. So having heard this twice now, I had to ask the obvious: if you liked it and it was a good flying job, then why leave to come here? His answer was that he had been a FO all 6 yrs, and that there was no upgrade coming up for him, and that many CAs there were weak, not following SOPs as in doing things differently / their own way, and he couldn't take that kinda environment as FO. So he left and came to my current company, where he upgraded very quickly because of rapid expansion at the time. So no harm, no foul, right?

Wrong.

He lets me take the first leg to Orlando on the transcon. I'm flying, but very quickly I see he has his own very particular quirks and obviously does things his own particular way. Which is ok, he is CA after all. But then a few things stand out. So as an example, we have weather up ahead, I'm looking at it. Without saying a word he keys up the mike and asks for 20 right (which, ok, he can as CA). But then he also pulls the heading bug and turns the plane 20 right. On my leg. Now I find that kinda weird. That's just one example. On every single thing he just does it. And his way. Some not really exactly matching SOP. Some things he has as a technique, he's convinced is SOP (it wasn't) and wants me to do it that way. Again, as long as it's safe, but I'll still point out politely. Anyway, there is no input, no discussion. If I suggest something, no lets do it [that other way]. His CRM was interesting to say the least.

So on the leg back from Orlando the next day, I kinda chuckled inside because I knew right then that at Atlas, his CAs weren't the ones who were weak, or lacked skills, or couldn't make decisions.... No. They were the ones who had to put up with this overbearing, dominant FO who literally ran his own show. And when he saw he couldn't get his way, had no chance of an upgrade, he left at the first chance of an airline with a rapid upgrade time so he could be CA. And I bet you if someone asked him today about moving to a FO seat on another/larger plane, his response would be "why would I ever want to accept a right seat again." My conclusion after flying with him was that without a doubt, he was basically what is referred to in aviation as "Captain right seat" while at Atlas. This is the FO who is overbearing, makes decisions without input/informing the CA, throws the book at the CA for [whatever issue], and basically runs the show from the right seat. Then when they upgrade, they become a real left seat CA and their habits are the same.


Based on what you've written, your words, your attitude, you fit that description.
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So, when he did all of that, did you ever confront him? Or did you just let it go? At the least, I think I just might have said.

"Your airplane. You can be PF, for the rest of the trip."

That would piss me off so bad, touching the controls/radios/heading bug et al. Or making command decisions without my input when I'm PF
 
Maximillian_Jenius said:
So, when he did all of that, did you ever confront him? Or did you just let it go? At the least, I think I just might have said.

"Your airplane. You can be PF, for the rest of the trip."

That would piss me off so bad, touching the controls/radios/heading bug et al. Or making command decisions without my input when I'm PF
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It was just a 2-day transcon, never flew with him again. But I’ve heard of his name come up before as a “meh” kinda guy to fly with. If I fly with one of my regulars and they do this kinda thing, I’d let them know.

Another example I’ve seen (not this guy) but another CA is what I call the “testing of FOs.” So this kinda CA will do something or ask something to see if you know your stuff/pay attention. For example, Airbus flight control check is “full up, full down, neutral. Full left, full right, neutral.”

So this guy would purposefully go full down first, and so the FO says full down, and he’d say “good, just seeing if you pay attention.” Like that kinda thing. Unnecessary. And not SOP. SOP clearly states the order Up, down, neutral, left, right, neutral. This CA got called out on it numerous times and eventually corrected himself. It’s crap like that. Some of these CAs that think highly of them self, enough to say they never want to go back to the right seat, and their “mold the FO” in reality is just an entire trip of them doing “testing” of the FOs to see if they know their stuff. It gets old, real quick.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
another CA is what I call the “testing of FOs.”
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One senior CA at my shop would flip a couple of random switches when we just started flying together to make sure FOs are thorough on the preflights.
"Plane ready and fueled, oh and that's for you (hand him a banana I grabbed from the FBO fruit plate on the counter)"
"What's that for?"
"For monkeying with the switches"
Had a chuckle about it, "testing" stopped there and then, became really good friends and flew many great trips together. Matter of fact, my last trips with the shop this week are scheduled with that CA.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
It was just a 2-day transcon, never flew with him again. But I’ve heard of his name come up before as a “meh” kinda guy to fly with. If I fly with one of my regulars and they do this kinda thing, I’d let them know.

Another example I’ve seen (not this guy) but another CA is what I call the “testing of FOs.” So this kinda CA will do something or ask something to see if you know your stuff/pay attention. For example, Airbus flight control check is “full up, full down, neutral. Full left, full right, neutral.”

So this guy would purposefully go full down first, and so the FO says full down, and he’d say “good, just seeing if you pay attention.” Like that kinda thing. Unnecessary. And not SOP. SOP clearly states the order Up, down, neutral, left, right, neutral. This CA got called out on it numerous times and eventually corrected himself. It’s crap like that. Some of these CAs that think highly of them self, enough to say they never want to go back to the right seat, and their “mold the FO” in reality is just an entire trip of them doing “testing” of the FOs to see if they know their stuff. It gets old, real quick.
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Ugh, @BigZ handled it good. I would have told him that he should go work in the training department. They trust me. Because they signed me off. Not you.
 
I just don't get hazing. I see it and have experienced it a lot in my field of work. If you're new and a nurse or a tech hasn't worked with you before, they will (or will try to) make your life at work hostile. Until THEY feel that you meet their requirements to perform your job. Or you report them to management, or you check them rudely or politely.
 
BigZ said:
One senior CA at my shop would flip a couple of random switches when we just started flying together to make sure FOs are thorough on the preflights.
"Plane ready and fueled, oh and that's for you (hand him a banana I grabbed from the FBO fruit plate on the counter)"
"What's that for?"
"For monkeying with the switches"
Had a chuckle about it, "testing" stopped there and then, became really good friends and flew many great trips together. Matter of fact, my last trips with the shop this week are scheduled with that CA.
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I kind of don't think an ASAP would be accepted if a captain did that, forgot about it, and then it caused a deviation or an exceedance of a limitation.

I'd probably walk off a trip if someone did that to me at any part 121 airline.
 
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