Delta VS Delta Connection carriers...

Re: Mgt .vs. Labor

Exactly what Kingairer said, the routes that TSA and CHQ fly were all old TWE routes. They were never given to Eagle they have been TSA and CHQ flying as American Connection since the merger. I live in STL and have friends flying for both. Those contracts were never taken from them and given to Eagle. who knows what will happen when the codeshare agreements expire since AMR owns Eagle, but that is just AMR honoring the contracts signed by TWA.
 
Re: Mgt .vs. Labor

I'm sorry to disagree with you but in fact I flew on the jumpseat of a TSA ERJ145 from BOS to LGA in 2001, operating as several carriers. It was in neutral "TSA" colors but it was certainly carrying an Eagle flight number as well as a couple of other carriers' numbers.

They used Waterski as a call sign but I know that flight was normally done by Eagle. Later on the Eagle BOS ERJ135s started doing the same flight. This was in the days when Eagle was awaiting delivery of the 135s.

Not that it matters. You certainly cannot deny that TSA and CHQ are flying Eagle routes right now, oh all right "American Connection" routes.

I don't think you'll argue with me when I say AMR doesn't give two spits about pilots.
 
Re: Mgt .vs. Labor

[ QUOTE ]
You certainly cannot deny that TSA and CHQ are flying Eagle routes right now

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually the routes that TSA and CHQ are flying now(post Nov 2003) out of STL are old TWA routes that turned into AA mainline routes that are now AmericanConnection Routes. There isnt a regional carrier out there that isnt flying an old mainline route somewhere in their structure. We could discuss time and time again whether they are replacing mainline routes, or rather just supporting them while times are tight. I dont think anyone at the regional level enjoys seeing mainline routes dissapear. (AA is actually adding back mainline flights to STL that were beeing consistantly oversold on Connection, this is the way it shoud work!!)

By the way, Whats your point?

Happy Holidays,
Kingairer
 
Re: Mgt .vs. Labor

Yeah in your attempt to ARGUE with me you forgot that we made the same point!
grin.gif


YES mainline carriers are giving routes to connection carriers in an attempt to pay pilots LESS. The theory behind J4J after all!

IF I ever went back (big IF), I would shoot for RJ captain at a nice stable regional with lots of code shares - like Mesa or TSA. Sure to have a job and since the flying is cheap the majors will be falling all over themselves trying to give us routes.
 
Re: Mgt .vs. Labor

[ QUOTE ]
like Mesa or TSA. Sure to have a job and since the flying is cheap the majors will be falling all over themselves trying to give us routes.


[/ QUOTE ]

Someone correct me if I am wrong, besides JT, but this is why everyone hates Mesa.
 
Re: Mgt .vs. Labor

Remember, there were some TSA ERJ's operating as Delta connection in 2000/2001.

I'm not sure what the flight number series was but my 'little brother' from my fraternity worked a lot of Delta connection flights before TSA lost the contract.

Might have been a replacement for the Business Express feed after AE purchased them.
 
Re: Mgt .vs. Labor

Ok Doug I gotta question. Maybe its been discussed or brought up but I bought a Delta ticket from KTPA to KIND and it was a delta painted plane but the flight was operated by Chatagua (yup thats spelled wrong) do they still work together? It was an Embrayer
 
Re: Mgt .vs. Labor

After America West dropped their CMH hub, Delta thought "Ooh! more RJ's!" and made a deal with Chautauqua to move from being a America West Express carrier to being Delta Connection carrier.
 
Re: Mgt .vs. Labor

LRuppert yes a lot of people hate Mesa but they are not exhibiting American Free Enterprise thinking when they do. Mesa manages to keeps its costs low, like several other growing and successful carriers, like Southwest, jetBlue, Airtran etc, whom no one seems to hate much.

I am not sure really why people hate Mesa particularly, but I have a theory:

Mesa was one of the first airline in America to hire "ab initio" pilots through the San Juan (now called MAPD) program. As a result you had a bunch of 300 hr wonders flying around in nice aircraft. Even though this is enough to enact jealousy and scorn from other airlines there is a deeper reason:

These guys complained about how bad Mesa was. The fact was they didn't know any better. They hadn't been around aviation long enough to know that what they were complaining about was just aviation and airline stuff! NO airline guarantees weekends and holidays off. NO airline guarantees you will work where you live. NO airline flies absolutely perfect equipment all the time. Out of the 5 airlines I worked for, I can tell you that Mesa had the newest aircraft/best maintenance hands down. But all the MAPDers would constantly complain about flying "junk."

Any aircraft that flies 20 legs a day 7 days a week is going to acquire some MEL stickers. Mesa was actually very good at clearing them. I still shudder when I think of Eagle and Midway where the number 1 response to a discrepancy was "Could not duplicate, Discrepancy removed."

The cheaper flying didn't help either. Back in the mid 90's, Allegheny was flying a lot of USAir Express routes in the northeast with Dash 8s and some 1900s. They had one of those "good contracts" with lots of expensive work rules like duty rigs, trip rigs, double overtime, impact pay, etc. Actually it wasn't so much that it was expensive but unpredictible. The USAir and Allegheny bean counters would predict so much for labor costs for any month and the figure at the end would vary greatly, usually higher.

So Mesa (then the Florida-Gulf Division) was asked to make a bid by USAir, and they did: with a much more predictible (and somewhat lower) labor cost, which is just what Crystal City wanted. Mesa took over almost half of Allegheny's NE routes and absorbed quite a few of the furloughed Allegheny pilots.

Most of the "Mesa sucks" talk that I heard came from this event. It caused an emnity between Allegheny and us that lasts until this day as far as I know. It was so bad that if I was in five mile trail behind an Allegheny DH8 I knew I had to bring it back to near stall speed or they would force us to go around (yes - this happened several times. It was well known in PIT, all the ALG guys brought it back as soon as they heard Air Shuttle behind them.)

It's really a shame too, because one on one I had some great talks with ALG pilots in the Philly trailer and elsewhere, but as a group they hated us. Getting the CRJs ahead of them didn't help matters either. I don't think USAir did this on purpose (where AMR definitely would have done it on purpose!) as much as it just happened because of Free Enterprise.

You can't hate a company for good business practices and still call your self a free enterprise American in my book. I am sorry that the piloting profession (or any profession for that matter) is not what the schools promise them to be. The fact remains, however, is that Mesa, Chautauqua, TSA, Colgan, CommutAir, Great Lakes, etc. have a better chance of staying around than airlines with expensive and unpredictible cost contracts like Piedmont, Allegheny, PSA, Horizon, etc.

It's one of those facts of life that if we just accept and deal with we can get on with our lives.
 
Re: Mgt .vs. Labor

Chautauqua also operates the MCO Delta Connection hub. Although most likely you were flying with an IND crew.
 
Re: Mgt .vs. Labor

The reason that Mesa rubbed me the wrong way is that I worked for Skyway Airlines, who freshly escaped the clutches of Mesa after I was hired.

Skyway was once a Mesa carrier when we had Beech 1900C's. They'd use non FAA approved motor parts on aircraft down at our Rockford, IL maintenance base, and didn't stop until the federal government shut the operation down and started sending some of the managers to the "pokey" for doing such.

Whenever some of the pilots would ask for a raise, we'd be shown a stack of resumes of pilots that would lovingly do our job for thousands less.

Finally, Skyway axed the Mesa contract, shut the operation down and then Midwest Express started a wholly-owned subsidiary called "Astral Aviation d/b/a Skyway Airlines" and cleaned house of all of the Mesa people.

I'm just trying to keep it real bro!

Mesa, by far, is not the evil empire, but they're certainly not Air Noble.
 
Re: Mgt .vs. Labor

Doug you are talking about a long time ago. None of those people are at Mesa any more. I remember the Skyway fiasco only in historical lore. That was the Early Risley Era.

The last C model disappeared shortly after I was hired.

And yes, Mesa is not Air Noble by any means, but I have yet to meet that airline! They are all fraught with problems. Even Southwest has problems although they use the Disney approach and try to bury everything before it goes public.
 
Re: Mgt .vs. Labor

Not there because they're in jail, d'oh!
smile.gif
 
Re: Mgt .vs. Labor

"You can't hate a company for good business practices and still call your self a free enterprise American in my book"

JT, would you consider JO starting Freedom to lower the expectations of the Mesa pilot group a good business practice?

I don't hate Mesa. I have two close friends who work there.

What I hate about Mesa is JO and his management team bringing about the Freedom deal during contract talks as a way to whipsaw his pilot group into a lesser contract...so you could say I hate JO, not Mesa.

I also disagree with (MAPD) 300 hour pilots in the right seat of an RJ (pilots selected and trained by the US military, exepted)...but hate is too strong of a word to use...let's just say I disagree with the practice.
 
Re: Mgt .vs. Labor

Freedom was an excellent business move. I'm not making a moral judgement here, just a business judgement.

He knew (rightly) that there were plenty of pilots who would take the chance to promote their own careers at the expense of others.

Honestly I consider JO to be a typical CEO, very good in someways and not as good in others. He knows his first responsibility is to the shareholders, certainly not the pilot union.

If you want to talk about who was the "villain" here, I would say it is probably the pilots that screwed their buddies so they could get ahead. That does not apply to all Freedom pilots, either. Many went to Freedom because it was either that or no work at all. In fact, several who were already management pilots at Mesa had to transfer over or lose their jobs (since the jobs were no longer needed.)

There were a significant number of pilots, however, who made the choice to go to Freedom and didn't care about the rest of the pilot group. Leaving morals out of it for right now, I think it was a "bad business move" by those pilots, for now they are "on a list" which is something you really want to avoid in this business.
 
Re: Mgt .vs. Labor

perhaps we all need to think more about the "morality" of our decisions and less about the "business" of them....
 
Re: Mgt .vs. Labor

[ QUOTE ]
perhaps we all need to think more about the "morality" of our decisions and less about the "business" of them....

[/ QUOTE ]

I am glad you said something DE727UPS. Companies concentrate so much on making money that they forget about its number one resource, the employees.

The same thinking JO has is same thinking clothing companies have when they open up sweat shops. Or when american companies preach about buying american but most of the business is outsourced to cheaper countries. All this to make a buck. This is really sad and should be stopped. I just don't think it will.
 
Re: Mgt .vs. Labor

[ QUOTE ]
perhaps we all need to think more about the "morality" of our decisions and less about the "business" of them....

[/ QUOTE ]

Well put. Sure, you can boost your profits by a penny or two a share by shipping jobs overseas, but what are you doing to the American economy when you do that? You're putting tens of thousands of people on the street, and that's tens of thousands of people who can't buy products and spend money to help boost the economy.

So what does that end up doing, long term?

Who will you sell your products to when everyone's working at Wal-K-Sears-Mart for $8 an hour and no benefits?

Penny wise, pound foolish!
 
Back
Top