Delta VS Delta Connection carriers...

We all see these things from a different perspective. I'm a hard core, pro-union, line slug. If my union tells me to walk away from this job, I'd do it in a heartbeat. In the end, that's really all that keeps some pilot jobs a well paying job. Management would have us all work for 20K a year to make the stockholders happy, if they could get away with it...the union is what keeps them from getting away with it.

Scope isn't always effective. Neither are no furlough clauses, I guess...but it's best when pilots stick together for their common good.

I was happy to see the NWA MEC rally behind the Mesaba guys and hear the Pinnicle MEC is saying the same thing.
 
Believe me, I wholeheartedly agree.

When pilots start to attempt to think like CEO's, things like the "B Scale" pops up, attempting to buy career advancement via lowball pay rates appears and the cannibalistic self-feeding begins.

Like there are guys that would 'sell' the ability to jumpseat to management for a $5/hr pay increase because (a) they don't jumpseat and (b), well, $5/hr is another $350/month for getting rid of a benefit that they personally don't use.
 
....so basically all of us future aspiring commercial airline pilots are pretty much screwed until we get hired with a mainline carrier if that is our route.

Which can't "outsource" out there flying.

When Comair won there landmark raises I cheered that regional pilots might actually be able to live some what decently.

Now I see the backlash that there higher salaries are causing in the industry.

I agree wholeheartly with DEUPS727 I favor unions a a bridge for workers in talks with management.

One more thing. As everyone knows this industry is either feast or famine. Right now were all starving but the future is starting to look brighter.

When airlines are again profitable do you think that higher salaries like the ones that occured in the early 90's might show there heads again.

Also when the airlines are again profitable do you think that outsourcing flying will not be needed any longer. And that airlines will again rely on all there flying to be done by mainline pilots and there regional partners.

Lastly when this shiny happy future occurs (if ever) will we see SLC go back to being a predominatly mainline base instead of a super hub for Delta Connection?

Doug you still flyin the MD-90?


Matthew
 
Doug I think we are saying the same thing. We DON'T see the wholly owneds flying anything decent because their contracts are expensive,

Tell me, what is your opinion on J4J?
 
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Tell me, what is your opinion on J4J?

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No idea.
 
J4J = "Jets For Jobs"

the mainline carrier sends routes to the express carrier in exchange for picking up some of the furloughed pilots.
 
Maybe I'm out of the loop, but why bust his balls?

I'm trying to add to my almost non-existant knowledge of airline operations here...quit interfering!
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J4J = "Jets For Jobs"

the mainline carrier sends routes to the express carrier in exchange for picking up some of the furloughed pilots.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know, I really have no idea. I've heard of the J4J thing, but don't have enough information to form an opinion either way.

What's the dealio?
 
I was hoping you could tell me more. I don't know enough about it to form an opinion yet.

It seems, however, that airline mgt is determined to pay us as little as possible (as you previously stated) and they have a ton of tricks up their sleeve.

I know that J4J has not gone over well at places like Mesa or Skywest.

Many turned down the job offer but there were quite a few that preferred to be a CRJ FO .vs. Burger King Fries man.
 
This is all depressing, this trend is occuring in all walks, not just aviation- management tries to get concessions, or threat job-loss. Its all about what Michael Moore has been talking about these past years. And when the company becomes profitable again, it will be the management that first pats themselves on the back and says "see, those pay cuts really did help" and then give themselves healthy bonuses.

Maybe I see management too much as bloodthirsty beings? Or maybe not...
 
I have to agree somewhat. As soon as a regional gets a decent contract and pay scale, they become too expensive and lose flying to someone who will do it for less. That is exactly what started Independence Air. We had a UAL contract, they wanted us to rebid for less. We gave them concessions, but not enough.

I have some problems with the union side as well. For example, at our company, the negotiating committee is staffed by CRJ pilots. As a result, the CRJ has the best pay rates, especially when compared to FOs on the "junior" aircraft. I am sure that their thinking was that no one would stay on the junior aircraft. That everyone would upgrade to the CRJ quickly. But when growth stops, then pilots (such as myself) are trapped in a poverty level seat while people who were hired behind us into the CRJ are making $10,000 per year more, just because of the luck of their aircraft assignment.

And even in our TAs, FOs in the poor seats are still expected to take pay cuts along with everyone else, based on the assumption that growth will start again and we'll be able to upgrade. That kind of thinking almost caused a backlash of FOs in the last TA vote.
 
interesting... it almost seems that the pilot-group as an "organism" starts biting into their own leg and chewing! Or rather, the management that wants to fuel this type of thing.
 
It's always the dilemma. Getting a poor contract has it's obvious downsides. Getting a "great" contract can come back and bite you. If you are at an airline that negotiates an "industry leading" contract, you might want to start dusting off your resume.
 
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Then look at all the TSA and Chautauqua (and Biz Ex before they were "absorbed") doing Eagle routes.

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TSA and CHQ doing eagle routes? Which ones would those be? The ones out of STL? When did Eagle fly out of STL???
 
When AMR bought TWA the TWE routes became Eagle routes, but I wasn't thinking about STL as much as LGA and BOS. I used to see TSA and CHQ ERJs up there in Eagle colors.
 
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Maybe I'm out of the loop, but why bust his balls?

I'm trying to add to my almost non-existant knowledge of airline operations here...quit interfering!
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Agreed...continue this
 
Mgt .vs. Labor

Let me stir the pot here - Long post!

Mgt. .vs. Labor

These two are always diametrically opposed, as they should be in a free enterprise system. Labor always wants to be paid as much as they can get. On the other hand, Mgt wants to pay as little as possible.

But it's deeper than that. Let me lump "Owners" and "Business Starters" in with Mgt. Sure there are shareholders in Labor but you rarely see the real risk takers working as labor. An employee doesn't put up anything unusual at risk (in terms of measurable assets - lets not get in to safety just yet!)

Mgt takes risks. In the beginning, those are personal risks. On order to become a business owner, CEO etc there will have to be some point in the fiscal career where personal assets will be put on the line and a huge risk taken. Thus they should be rewarded for the risk.

I really doubt that Mgt pats each other on the back when giving each other bonuses because of a successful pay cut, except of course in union situations, due to the hostile tendencies of those negotations.

If you look at a successful, growing company you will usually see happy employees that are steadily increasing their pay rates as the company increases profit margins. I've said it before: no company wants to show a cash profit at the end of the year and cause a tax event! It results in double taxation. It is much easier (and cheaper) to pay payroll taxes by giving out bonuses. Fortunately, our democrat friends have failed so far in their attempts to tax those bonuses at a higher rate. They mistakenly argue that it will generate more income when in fact it will just reduce the number of year end bonuses. The corporations will find another way to spend money to avoid corporate income tax. Remember, this would apply to YOUR bonus as well.

An employee can never be "paid what he/she is worth" - that is bad fiscal policy. Due to overhead that means that the employee would actually be costing the company money.

I learned this lesson after having it beat in to my head too many times. No employer will ever pay you any more than they absolutely have to, to keep you coming to work every day. My dad put it this way, "You don't get wealthy working for someone else. As long as someone else controls what you make then you are not free."

This is ok though, it's what makes America great. In this country someone can take risks by putting personal assets on the line and (hopefully) generate business, and therefore commerce. The IRS will get their cut of the payroll taxes as it should and the gov't is funded.

Myth #1: "It takes money to make money"

I know a lot of people who started with money and are now broke. The second generation of wealth has a very poor statistical history in the US. In fact, if I walk around Florida here and see who the wealthy business owners are, most are not even from here! They arrived with nothing but a dream and a good attitude.

I'd say it takes an idea and a mindset, more than money.

Myth #2: "The rich are keeping the money from the poor"

I'd say it's more the other way around. The rich come up with something the poor want and they hock their lives to buy it! Why would anyone spend $35k on a new car for example? What a horrible investment! A car loses half it's value as soon as you sign the bill of sale.

Myth #3: "Airline Pilots are rich" or "Airline Pilot is a Good Job"

First of all, the percentage of pilots that actually make a decent wage is regrettably low as we all have discussed to death. But even those that do are still not what the American public would call "rich" as most still make payments on cars, Visas, etc. (I am excluding those forward thinking pilots who have invested their money wisely, particularly in a second business. I am referring to those who rely entirely on their pilot pay for income.)

Second, "Good Job" may be an oxymoron. I think we can say that the old American Dream of working 9-5 for forty years and retiring on our pension and social security is no longer a given. Last I heard my social security was already spent.

This is getting long so I'll stop. Maybe this belongs in the squawk box but we were already talking "in the neighborhood."

[/soapbox]
 
Re: Mgt .vs. Labor

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When AMR bought TWA the TWE routes became Eagle routes, but I wasn't thinking about STL as much as LGA and BOS. I used to see TSA and CHQ ERJs up there in Eagle colors.


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CHQ and TSA have not operated in the Northeast in eagle colors ever, Unless its a flight to STL. BizEx may be a different story but CHQ and TSA were flying the routes out of STL for TWA when AA bought them. AA only kept the status quo and kept the planes flying to the same cities just in different colors. This changed slights in november of this year, but all the flying is still out of STL, where it has always been.
 
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