Delta Terminates Freedom Flying

[ppragman]

To your #2: Oh great - so get the hell out - you're not doing it for the sheer enjoyment of flying. Way to contradict yourself buddy. Oh but wait. . .now you're changing the wording of it. . .ah man. . .imagine that. Nevertheless, who is bitching and moaning about it? Simply because it's not the amazing world that the marketing gurus and fliers have been pumping out - now we're bitching and moaning? Shiiiiiiiiit.

To your #3: You assume that I'm complaining, when in reality I'm not at all. I'm providing reality based information instead of dreamy ######## for kids to soak up and have their little dreams popped when they get into the real world - with bills, a house, a car payment, and a wife/husband.

You may not like my honesty, but I'm not the only one spitting these rhymes.

I enjoy my QOL, just like you enjoy yours. So let's move on. . .or is this clearly an attempt to show that you're just so much better because you ARE the PIC of a single engine piston in Alaska?

Well. . .if that's the cause - ppragman, you're the BOMB-DIGGITY of single engine PIC's in Alaska. You're a total badass, and everyone SHOULD follow in your footsteps. All of us who haven't, well. . .we just suck.

To your last little paragraph; once again, it's clear that you don't understand the relationship between the person who sits in the left seat and the one who sits in the right seat. I'm not going to bother to explain it to you, as it's crystal clear that you're a badass pilot dude and you'll never even allow yourself to lower to the two pilot crew environment.

Good luck. . .

Wow, just wow.

This starts out good enough, with a fairly well put together premise, then degenerates into a personal attack in the last two paragraphs. I never said people should follow in my footsteps, I just said there were alternatives to airline jobs if you were unhappy. I don't want to do what I'm doing for ever. I like a two pilot crew, when I was an FO (yes read that twice I was an FO) on the 1900 (yes a plane certificated for single pilot ops) I loved the flying, and thouroughly enjoyed flying with two people because it was fun and interesting to coordinate between different flying styles and get to know a whole bunch of different guys and gals. What I am saying however, is that as the FO, unless you take an active role in making the flight unsafe (EMB-110 above) all the responsibility lies with the captain. Its not that you're useless, its just that you don't sign for the airplane. You have duties that are required of you, but at the end of the day, the buck stops with the guy on the left. Period. You don't become a passenger, but you definately aren't at the same level of responsibility.

As for your truthfulness, I don't know, I seem to see a lot of airline guys who are disgruntled, or somehow upset with the quality of their existence, whereas on demand guys seem to have a little better qol on average. For what its worth, I find that this thread has become a mockery of what it was started for. You attack me personally for saying things truthfully, then turn around and say that you're spewing this nonsense because its the truth. I turn around and lambast you for your posts, clearly we aren't communicating well. There are a lot of different versions of the truth, and
we could both potentially be mistaken as to the validity of our arguments. Rather than turn this into a pan-jetcareers flame fest, I say we continue this in PMs or terminate this discussion here.

 

[mtsu_av8er]

Well. . .if that's the cause - ppragman, you're the BOMB-DIGGITY of single engine PIC's in Alaska. You're a total badass, and everyone SHOULD follow in your footsteps. All of us who haven't, well. . .we just suck.

Deja Vu!!! LOL

Don't you have anything else you can say?

 

[Clocks]

ppragman,

Typing that much really wasn't even needed. Especially considering that the statement I was trying to make went way over your head.

Telling ME (or anyone for that matter) to get out of flying for a living because they don't do it for the sheer enjoyment is just ridiculous.

• I fly because I do enjoy it. . .but certainly not because I ONLY enjoy it.
• I fly because it's a paycheck
• I fly because it's a line of work that I have been interested in since I was a kid.
• I fly because I honestly know nothing else but aviation.

You enjoy flying the equipment you fly around, bravo! I enjoy flying the equipment I fly around. . .and?

I can't expect you, or anyone who has not or does not fly in the 121 environment to understand or even relate to the issues that 121 pilots have. Much like mikecweb doesn't expect me to understand the issues of 135 pilots.

I'm happy you're enjoying what you do; all of us ENJOY (see it? I said it. . .AGAIN as a matter of fact, since you obviously missed it the many times prior to this) what we do. It's the myth that we are not buying into or agreeing with.

That same myth (that flying for the airlines is a dream job) is what has brought many of the negatives aspects to that segment of the industry. I don't mind debating that, but if you're just going to waste your time telling me why flying a piston around is a dream for you; don't bother. . .I don't really care what is a dream for you. I'm glad you enjoy your little niche market, and I hope it treats you well. Further, you mention sympathy. Who the hell was asking for any? Or did you just assume since I'm not all cheerful, and that I speak in reality terms and not "dreams" that I must be seeking sympathy? Kidding right?

We all make our own bed, and we all must lay in what we make. I'm happy where I've ended up, and hope to enjoy this lifestyle / profession for a very long time.

We all grow up at some point or another as well. There will always be that 6 year old that walks up to the flight deck in all of us - praise baby jesus for that - but at some point, that little dream bubble pops. We have families, houses, cars, bills, etc. This isn't about being some kid. Grow up essentially, and make a living. Have some professional self-worth and do it the best that you can, but stay focused on the mission (moving cargo, be it human or boxes, safely).

You can down play the responsibility we all have until you're blue in the face, really doesn't make a difference. That responsibility is there whether you agree with it or not.

Another spot on post. It hurts me to agree with surreal...but I just can't deny this one.

Answer me this: Are you the captain?

Until I get a waiver from the FAA releasing me from liability for anything that happens, my ass is on the line too.

And there are all different kinds of CAs. There are the ones still in CFI mode, there are the ones who just like to contribute their opinions occasionally, and there are the ones who literally do nothing but stare out the window unless you're about to bend metal (they obviously do a little more than that, but all of the decision making is yours good or bad...deviate left, right, or fly straight through it "I dunno, up to you").

 

[NC_BE300]

When I have a Capt that wants to "baby" me, I make sure that he earns his money.

Every checklist is by request (or command, as they like to call it . . .) only, and nothing is volunteered.

I am sooo on this page right how with this guy on my trip.....
Thank god tomorrow is the last day and only 3 legs!

 

[surreal1221]

Deja Vu!!! LOL

Don't you have anything else you can say?

It won't happen again Sir. deja vu who though? this was the first time i've called him the bomb-diggity of alaska single engine PICs

Sorry if I'm using yours, or someone else's material.

I'm sure I could find something else to say, but unless my comments are directly challenged, I really don't have anything additional to say in this thread. ppragman has indicated he'd rather take any further discussion that he and I have to the private environment, which is fine by me.

 

[Nick]

SIC Responsibility

"You aren't responsible for a damn thing unless you're in the left seat"

I spent about half a year working in the flight safety department of a legacy air carrier.

In that time I read more than three thousand raw, fully-identified ASAP reports. Each week a meeting is held. Five people attend and all of them sign a confidentiality agreement.
FAA representative
ALPA representative
Airline representative
Flight Safety Director
Intern

The FAA rep, the ALPA rep, and the airline rep sit there and discuss reports that get their attention. Typically about 150 reports submitted for the week, and accounts are written by both pilots.

Almost every single one of them for months on end included an identical letter of warning, letter of correction, or letter of no action to the PIC and SIC(s). That is because both have responsibilities.

During the half year there were also three events that were of great enough magnitude to warrant a debriefing, in person. The crew was called in and a big room was set up each time, with the fleet chief pilot, the base chief pilot, the company chief pilot, director of flight safety, FAA representatives, ALPA representatives, the dispatcher of the flight if appropriate, company meteorologists if appropriate, and anyone else who could have been a source of information regarding the incident in question.

In each of these, up in front of the group were the PIC and SIC, talking about the event and answering any questions those hosting the debriefing might have had.

The PIC and SIC were always questioned equally and in one event with captain that was relatively new to the airplane and hadn't been to _ _ _ airport in several years, the SIC, a pilot who had been based at _ _ _ airport in a previous 121 job as captain, was actually prodded for answers more than the PIC. Why didn't he speak up? Why didn't he call for the PIC to ____?

I would really like to know with what information you boldly make your assertion that a pilot does not have any responsibility unless they are the pilot in command.

I'll check back on here later for an response okay?

 

[Bama]

You aren't responsible for a damn thing unless you're in the left seat.

Hmmm. Try telling that to James Polehinke. He'd probably be relieved to hear that.

 

[RPJ]

I saw this today earlier today on the internal Delta site. Guess that might explain why Mesa decided not to hire me, I got my email today after interviewing last week.

It also looks like Mesa canceled their "group" interviews as well.
http://www.mesa-air.com/pilots.asp

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Hmmm. Try telling that to James Polehinke. He'd probably be relieved to hear that.

I didn't even think about that, but an excellent case study for Mr. ppragman to look over.

 

[adreamer]

Well, someone care to explain who is James Polehinke?

Agree with Nick, SICs are also hold responsible for what happened in the cockpit. I had to "speak up" and filed ASAP reports few times in regarding with what happened. I had few CAs apologized and thank me for "CYA" maneuvers.

My response - "That is the reason why there are 2 pilots up front." "At the same token, I hope you will do the same for me."

Now, back to origin broadcast program.

 

[surreal1221]

James was the FO, and sole survivor of Comair 191 out of Lexington, KY.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

James Polehinke was the copilot on the CMR flight that crashed in LEX. He was the only one to survive the crash.

Edit: I guess surreal beat me to the punch.

 

[surreal1221]

Take that!

 

[Number1atNumber2]

As someone who's spent plenty of time in both seats, I completely disagree with this nonsense. The FO certainly doesn't have equal responsibility, but he has plenty. This idea that FOs are just along for the ride needs to stop.

:yeahthat:

If PIC screws up big time, everyone can die. We are all human, we make mistakes, having a "yes man" in the right seat is not a good thing at all. The SIC is there to do more than just lighten the workload.
When there is a F-up the FAA has no problem comming down on both pilots. Case and point: I have a letter of warning in my file for another year due to an altitude bust. The captain was the one flying, I was running a checklist when it happened. We screwed up and got nailed for it. Did I cause the screw up? No. But I did nothing to help stop it by being distracted, so I share some of the blame. Rightfully so.
The worst environment you can have is one pilot with a god complex that doesn't want to hear anything from the other side of the cockpit and assumes that person is an idiot. We are all idiots, just some of us are more often than others.

 

[WestIndian425]

So....Delta terminates Freedom' CRJ flying...interesting.

What's all this other stuff about? (Talk about hijacking a thread)

For what it's worth, I'm on board with all who says the FO's role in the cockpit (as well as the FE since there's still a few of those around) is as equally important as the CA.

 

[surreal1221]

So....Delta terminates Freedom' CRJ flying...interesting.

What's all this other stuff about? (Talk about hijacking a thread)

For what it's worth, I'm on board with all who says the FO's role in the cockpit (as well as the FE since there's still a few of those around) is as equally important as the CA.

The rest of the stuff is a micro-Professional Standards discussion.

 

[kellwolf]

Check airman that did my OE told me "You WILL have an FO save your ass at some point." Ya know what? I'm glad I've got that second person there, and I hope he DOES speak up if something goes wrong instead of just being along for the ride. I'd rather look stupid in front of my FO than the FAA.

 

[CamYZ125]

What was this thread about? Oh yeah! Apparently a groundschool class in progress was sent home today. Word from one of the guys in the class says they told them that they will be needing them, but not likely in the next 6 months. So I guess that adds Mesa to the list of not hiring or running classes.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

Ouch, so much for me getting a better schedule!

 

[Cruise]

Ouch, so much for me getting a better schedule!

Ya know, w/ that bunny avatar.....I want you to have the best schedule possible.

That opinion is after many, many birthday drinks.........take it for what it's worth.