SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Ask union truckers what they think of the non-union Overnite truckers. The stream of expletives will make your head hurt. It's not just this industry. And it's not unjustified.
Delta Terminates Freedom Flying
- Thread starter EMcx3
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Bigey
Well-Known Member
I have a feeling an executive order would come out of bush's mouth and anyone caught participating in such a "travesty" would be held liable in a criminal court...
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
It's just a job guys. . .get rid of the emotion and you'll be surprised at what we can all accomplish.
Remove any lingering "dream" quality that flying for a living might have held in your mind, and come together as a collective group of professionals.
I'm sure Overnight Truckers didn't dream of growing up and driving a truck for a living, or Disney workers dreaming of growing up to wear a Mickey Mouse suit.
It's a job. . .stop treating it like something that should be idolized by kids, teens, and immature college graduates. Bills need to be paid, and we all (no matter what segment of the industry) have a large amount of responsibility placed into our hands. It shouldn't even be second guessed that we all should be compensated well for these responsibilities. . .even if only for 15 minutes in one year we really earn our paycheck. We don't get to choose those 15 minutes. . .neither do the people we work for. But when it comes up, you better bet the $23 an hour or $65 or $95 or $140 an hour salary we are pulling down will never be enough.
We can enjoy what we do, we should. But to continue to pass down this myth that flying for a living is a dream career needs to come to a quick halt. Especially when the cycle of failing companies and these same companies sending people to the street is occurring - I'm sorry. . .but there is nothing dreamy about such things.
Remove any lingering "dream" quality that flying for a living might have held in your mind, and come together as a collective group of professionals.
I'm sure Overnight Truckers didn't dream of growing up and driving a truck for a living, or Disney workers dreaming of growing up to wear a Mickey Mouse suit.
It's a job. . .stop treating it like something that should be idolized by kids, teens, and immature college graduates. Bills need to be paid, and we all (no matter what segment of the industry) have a large amount of responsibility placed into our hands. It shouldn't even be second guessed that we all should be compensated well for these responsibilities. . .even if only for 15 minutes in one year we really earn our paycheck. We don't get to choose those 15 minutes. . .neither do the people we work for. But when it comes up, you better bet the $23 an hour or $65 or $95 or $140 an hour salary we are pulling down will never be enough.
We can enjoy what we do, we should. But to continue to pass down this myth that flying for a living is a dream career needs to come to a quick halt. Especially when the cycle of failing companies and these same companies sending people to the street is occurring - I'm sorry. . .but there is nothing dreamy about such things.
Clocks
Well-Known Member
surreal you nailed it. It's a job.
The first day of college our professor asked us why we wanted to be airline pilots (after 99% of the class raised their hands that they wanted to be one). "I love to fly" was the most common answer. Afterward he said (and I'm paraphrasing) 'you don't go to the airlines if you "love to fly". The people who just "love to fly" are the ones pulling their personal 152s out of the hanger on a Saturday morning. You go to the airlines if you want to fly fast, expensive, high tech stuff you can't see in GA.'
Truck drivers probably don't dream of being a truck driver, but they might know they have a desire to be independent. Accountants may not dream of being accountants, but they probably have a desire to play with numbers. For some of us, its the same with working for the airlines.
What I'm hunting for right now is not a "personal connection to the sky", I can get that for $100/hour at the local flying club. I'm hunting for the best job I can get flying fast, expensive, high tech equipment around. Of course pay, unions, scheduling, and work rules play a big role in where I go to fill that desire (obviously you have to be able to pay the bills). Maybe some day my priorities will change and it will be a fractional, or the majors, or a cargo carrier, or sitting at a desk. But if all I had was a "love for flying" I'd make a heck of a lot more money as an accountant and have a much better chance at experiencing my "love for flying". There are of course other aspects I also enjoy, but those things I can get in other industries too.
And I had it at xjet. Spending a few days a week flying (relatively) big pieces of equipment around is exactly what I'm looking for right now. The pay sucks but it gets better. Getting furloughed sucks, but I'll get recalled or do what I have to in order to get back to the job. I don't really enjoy traveling. But at the end of the day its the airlines that offer what I want out of aviation and that's why I'm there. Not to fulfill a "dream", not to be looked up to, and not to look "cool" walking through the terminal.
The first day of college our professor asked us why we wanted to be airline pilots (after 99% of the class raised their hands that they wanted to be one). "I love to fly" was the most common answer. Afterward he said (and I'm paraphrasing) 'you don't go to the airlines if you "love to fly". The people who just "love to fly" are the ones pulling their personal 152s out of the hanger on a Saturday morning. You go to the airlines if you want to fly fast, expensive, high tech stuff you can't see in GA.'
Truck drivers probably don't dream of being a truck driver, but they might know they have a desire to be independent. Accountants may not dream of being accountants, but they probably have a desire to play with numbers. For some of us, its the same with working for the airlines.
What I'm hunting for right now is not a "personal connection to the sky", I can get that for $100/hour at the local flying club. I'm hunting for the best job I can get flying fast, expensive, high tech equipment around. Of course pay, unions, scheduling, and work rules play a big role in where I go to fill that desire (obviously you have to be able to pay the bills). Maybe some day my priorities will change and it will be a fractional, or the majors, or a cargo carrier, or sitting at a desk. But if all I had was a "love for flying" I'd make a heck of a lot more money as an accountant and have a much better chance at experiencing my "love for flying". There are of course other aspects I also enjoy, but those things I can get in other industries too.
And I had it at xjet. Spending a few days a week flying (relatively) big pieces of equipment around is exactly what I'm looking for right now. The pay sucks but it gets better. Getting furloughed sucks, but I'll get recalled or do what I have to in order to get back to the job. I don't really enjoy traveling. But at the end of the day its the airlines that offer what I want out of aviation and that's why I'm there. Not to fulfill a "dream", not to be looked up to, and not to look "cool" walking through the terminal.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
I dreamed of growing up to be a pilot, and look, here I am. I'm certain there are a whole bunch of people on this forum with the same stories. Nobody was tricked into flying for a living, very few people I know got into flying by accident. The one and only difference that seperates us from most bus drivers, overnight truckers, cabbies, rickshaw pullers, etc. is that aviation for many of us was a dream, for many of us it was the golden idol to which we prayed many a night. We hoped beyond hope that we could only get that first real job when our time was low. We worked so hard, and scavenged for flight time in that time building phase. To go back further we were all amazed at how much faster the plane climbed with the instructor out on our first solo, and the feeling of freedom as we rounded out in that first bumpy landing. For many of us, aviation, and flying in particular is our identity, it is what we were, are and will become. It is who I am for damn sure. Don't cheapen the lives of others because of your own personal problems with the industry.
If your not in flying for the sheer enjoyment of it, then get the hell out. Because how can you take these things seriously if you're just there to collect a check? If flying doesn't hold some magic, then quit complaining if you cant afford it, and do something else for a living. But its not about that is it? You want to fly because you enjoy it. So, you keep flying. Flying is dreamy. Flying is all those things we got into it for. Flying is fun! If you don't do it for the fun then why are you here? The hours suck, the pay is only mediocre, and the danger is fairly high? Why are you still here if not for the flying? There are two answers to this question. One, you're here for the flying, or two, you were here for the flying, but now you don't like it and this is all you know how to do. If you're a member of group two, then the answer is fairly simple, go back to school, or find a job where you can do what you want.
What I've been saying this whole thread is that there are other alternatives to the airlines. Imagine how much more fun it would be to fly a migratory bird patrol at 50' off the deck on the coast. Or spray crops. What about flying aerial mapping or a corporate gig for some small business flying there 402? What about doings some real flying other than Direct Enter on the GPS? How about a medivac job. Those pay really well (the ones up here pay more than $70k per year starting) and you don't fly that much so you have time for other things. The list goes on for ever. And guess what, the pay for most of these jobs is really well! Ohh, but its too hard to find these jobs, or maybe you don't have the requisite PIC time because you went to Pinnacle for all of your time. Then do something that will springboard you into the position where you can do what you want. Nothing good will come of sitting around and waiting for something to come to you. If you want to have a fun job in aviation, the go out and get the dammed thing.
Finally, you talked about responsibility, and clocks seconded your opinions, well, here's the rub: what is an FO on a RJ/1900/ATR really responsible for? Plain and simple, next to nothing. The pilot in command has final authority and responsibility for operation and safety of flight. Whereas a second in command means a pilot who is designated to be second in command of an aircraft during fight time. What does that mean in english? It means that the SIC has essentially no responsibility until the captain says so, or the captain dies. At that point the FO is responsible. Thus, if we are paid for our responsibilities should the FOs be paid very much? Well, they surely shouldn't be paid at a rate equal to the captains. So where do we draw the line? Well, if a starting captain makes $50/hr, then the FO sure as hell cant make $50, so lets be generous and say that the FO is half as responsible as a captain, so the FO makes $25/hr which is about average FO wages at most companies, and why not? Hell, in a 1900 the airplane is certificated for single pilot ops? Only 121 requires two pilots. At the end of the day what it comes down to is a combination of responsibility and supply and demand.
Finally, if you say the pay will never be enough then when will it end? When is this complaining about how horrible aviation is ad nauseum going to stop? Ask yourself this question when you wake up in the morning: do you dread going to work? If you do, then get out of aviation, or switch your job because I don't want to have a disgruntled, lazy, bitter FO in the right seat for when that measeley responsibility actually is required.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
pm sent
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Sea World employees get a case of free beer every month. If someone doesn't want theirs, they can go pick it up and give it to you. I worked there for over a year, and I always had beer in the frig without spending a dime. Being owned by Anheisher-Busch means everything.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
ppragman,
Typing that much really wasn't even needed. Especially considering that the statement I was trying to make went way over your head.
Telling ME (or anyone for that matter) to get out of flying for a living because they don't do it for the sheer enjoyment is just ridiculous.
You enjoy flying the equipment you fly around, bravo! I enjoy flying the equipment I fly around. . .and?
I can't expect you, or anyone who has not or does not fly in the 121 environment to understand or even relate to the issues that 121 pilots have. Much like mikecweb doesn't expect me to understand the issues of 135 pilots.
I'm happy you're enjoying what you do; all of us ENJOY (see it? I said it. . .AGAIN as a matter of fact, since you obviously missed it the many times prior to this) what we do. It's the myth that we are not buying into or agreeing with.
That same myth (that flying for the airlines is a dream job) is what has brought many of the negatives aspects to that segment of the industry. I don't mind debating that, but if you're just going to waste your time telling me why flying a piston around is a dream for you; don't bother. . .I don't really care what is a dream for you. I'm glad you enjoy your little niche market, and I hope it treats you well. Further, you mention sympathy. Who the hell was asking for any? Or did you just assume since I'm not all cheerful, and that I speak in reality terms and not "dreams" that I must be seeking sympathy? Kidding right?
We all make our own bed, and we all must lay in what we make. I'm happy where I've ended up, and hope to enjoy this lifestyle / profession for a very long time.
We all grow up at some point or another as well. There will always be that 6 year old that walks up to the flight deck in all of us - praise baby jesus for that - but at some point, that little dream bubble pops. We have families, houses, cars, bills, etc. This isn't about being some kid. Grow up essentially, and make a living. Have some professional self-worth and do it the best that you can, but stay focused on the mission (moving cargo, be it human or boxes, safely).
You can down play the responsibility we all have until you're blue in the face, really doesn't make a difference. That responsibility is there whether you agree with it or not.
Typing that much really wasn't even needed. Especially considering that the statement I was trying to make went way over your head.
Telling ME (or anyone for that matter) to get out of flying for a living because they don't do it for the sheer enjoyment is just ridiculous.
- I fly because I do enjoy it. . .but certainly not because I ONLY enjoy it.
- I fly because it's a paycheck
- I fly because it's a line of work that I have been interested in since I was a kid.
- I fly because I honestly know nothing else but aviation.
You enjoy flying the equipment you fly around, bravo! I enjoy flying the equipment I fly around. . .and?
I can't expect you, or anyone who has not or does not fly in the 121 environment to understand or even relate to the issues that 121 pilots have. Much like mikecweb doesn't expect me to understand the issues of 135 pilots.
I'm happy you're enjoying what you do; all of us ENJOY (see it? I said it. . .AGAIN as a matter of fact, since you obviously missed it the many times prior to this) what we do. It's the myth that we are not buying into or agreeing with.
That same myth (that flying for the airlines is a dream job) is what has brought many of the negatives aspects to that segment of the industry. I don't mind debating that, but if you're just going to waste your time telling me why flying a piston around is a dream for you; don't bother. . .I don't really care what is a dream for you. I'm glad you enjoy your little niche market, and I hope it treats you well. Further, you mention sympathy. Who the hell was asking for any? Or did you just assume since I'm not all cheerful, and that I speak in reality terms and not "dreams" that I must be seeking sympathy? Kidding right?
We all make our own bed, and we all must lay in what we make. I'm happy where I've ended up, and hope to enjoy this lifestyle / profession for a very long time.
We all grow up at some point or another as well. There will always be that 6 year old that walks up to the flight deck in all of us - praise baby jesus for that - but at some point, that little dream bubble pops. We have families, houses, cars, bills, etc. This isn't about being some kid. Grow up essentially, and make a living. Have some professional self-worth and do it the best that you can, but stay focused on the mission (moving cargo, be it human or boxes, safely).
You can down play the responsibility we all have until you're blue in the face, really doesn't make a difference. That responsibility is there whether you agree with it or not.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
You didn't listen to a thing I said, and you were rude in your response. Way to go. Lets start with the first red item.
Ohh, I couldn't possibly understand, my pitiful little brain pales in comparisson to yours, and other 121 drivers, give me a break. By the way, I don't say do it for the pure enjoyment, if it requires a little rephrasing then fine:"If you are unhappy with your job then get out and do something else rather than bitch and moan about it."
#2 Clearly you didn't listen, its not my dream job, but it gives me the QOL I need, and the money I need, and its flying, which is better than doing something else.
#3 Good, then what are you complaining about?
Ahhh and for the coup de gras the responsibility issue. Are you a captain? Then what kind of responsibility do you wield? The power to raise the gear when the captains says so? You aren't responsible for a damn thing unless you're in the left seat. The captain screws up everyone dies. The FO screws up, and the captain doesn't catch it, it counts as the captains screw up and everyone still dies. Look I used to be a right seater, I know. There is more responsibility flying in the left seat of a 150 than there is in the right seat of a 1900. The f-in plane is certificated for single pilot ops. SO don't give me this self richteous BS about how important you are. Answer me this: Are you the captain?
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
As someone who's spent plenty of time in both seats, I completely disagree with this nonsense. The FO certainly doesn't have equal responsibility, but he has plenty. This idea that FOs are just along for the ride needs to stop.
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
When I have a Capt that wants to "baby" me, I make sure that he earns his money.
Every checklist is by request (or command, as they like to call it . . .
) only, and nothing is volunteered.
Every checklist is by request (or command, as they like to call it . . .
) only, and nothing is volunteered.chrisdahut1
Well-Known Member
ppragman,
You must be a joy to fly with, if you PIC an airplane with an SIC. Really. I particularly like this gem of yours:
"You aren't responsible for a damn thing unless you're in the left seat"
Oh really? Try telling that to a friend of mine who got his certificate suspended several years ago after fudging the numbers on the W&B of an EMB-110. Apparently the FAA saw him as being responsible for the correct computation of the W&B. I have a friend right now who is having words with the FAA over a scheduling error when he was on IOE. Apparently they consider him responsible for something. Both are/were FOs.
I'm sorry if your previous experience as an FO was a do nothing job where all you could do was raise the gear on command of the Captain. But at my job as FO, I am actually expected to do just a tad more then that.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
To your #2: Oh great - so get the hell out - you're not doing it for the sheer enjoyment of flying. Way to contradict yourself buddy. Oh but wait. . .now you're changing the wording of it. . .ah man. . .imagine that. Nevertheless, who is bitching and moaning about it? Simply because it's not the amazing world that the marketing gurus and fliers have been pumping out - now we're bitching and moaning? Shiiiiiiiiit.
To your #3: You assume that I'm complaining, when in reality I'm not at all. I'm providing reality based information instead of dreamy ######## for kids to soak up and have their little dreams popped when they get into the real world - with bills, a house, a car payment, and a wife/husband.
You may not like my honesty, but I'm not the only one spitting these rhymes.
I enjoy my QOL, just like you enjoy yours. So let's move on. . .or is this clearly an attempt to show that you're just so much better because you ARE the PIC of a single engine piston in Alaska?
Well. . .if that's the cause - ppragman, you're the BOMB-DIGGITY of single engine PIC's in Alaska. You're a total badass, and everyone SHOULD follow in your footsteps. All of us who haven't, well. . .we just suck.
To your last little paragraph; once again, it's clear that you don't understand the relationship between the person who sits in the left seat and the one who sits in the right seat. I'm not going to bother to explain it to you, as it's crystal clear that you're a badass pilot dude and you'll never even allow yourself to lower to the two pilot crew environment.
Good luck. . .
tonyw
Well-Known Member
We'll see if that program continues now that A-B is owned by InBev. InBev is known for cost cutting and two free cases of beer a month for employees is going to be on their CEO's list of things to look at.
Is it short sighted and stupid? Yeah, it is. A-B probably breaks more bottles in a day than they give away to their employees in a month. But you know, you gotta make the bean counters happy, especially if you've loaded up on debt!
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