Delta TA
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PeanuckleCRJ
Poodle Wrangler
That's the problem with this- there is a lot of gray with wiggle room for the company on how they handle it. It could go great, but it could turn into a real mess real quick, too.
The FAA thing is a good add, there are good gains in scope (with the big x-factor that is the block hours vs eask).
I've actually rattled enough cages to where they are going to rework the math on the LCA thing. 2% relative seniority hit was actually a best case number. I finally wrangled it out of them today that it actually was more like 2-5% (they just somehow forgot to mention that at the road show). New York, ATL, and DTW FOs will be affected the most since those are newhire bases. And then they added on that they are going to get more detail.... the plot thickens.
This is the best negotiating environment we will perhaps ever see. I was expecting to be underwhelmed, not hit with a few real wild cards in gives with very modest pay bumps.
I love the letter "we will not sell this thing" from "puppy" the day before his "I have a scream" speech.
Irony and desperation!
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Seggy said:
The DHS has the responsibility, and that's currently an AME. True, it might not always be, but it can't get much worse than the CPO doing it. Again, you've got to compare to current book and industry norms, not what you'd like it to be. You and I are on the same page about what we think sick policies should be, but it just isn't going to happen. Yoda had the hardest time convincing me to authorize the changes to our CBA on this subject, so I get where you're coming from. But he was right, and I was just being ideological and stubborn instead of realistic.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
PeanuckleCRJ said:
I don't think so.
Yeah, I'm thinking that's a "no."
Think what you like, it's ok.
It's all a matter of perspective. When I got hired people were absolutely livid about the current contract from 1996. So angry that everyone and their mother called it POS96. The ship was going down unless we signed immediately, lots of backroom deals, we signed, took it in the ass and suddenly record profits and Ron Allen laughed his way all the way to the bank.
Afterwards, we had "The Ryan Report", the MEC's Bill Brown stacked some cheddar and disappeared, the promises of pay raises through upgrades never came to fruition and people were ready to burn the building down.
Then I come onto property in early 1998 and their rage at the contract looked, to me, like Shangri-La compared to what I was working under at Skyway (or lack thereof). So I spent a lot of time listening and gathering information. I made a lot of friends on either side of the issue, some people that were deep within the deep inner sanctum of union leadership and some that were just "average joe" line pilots.
You were in Herndon. You know exactly what I'm talking about and I can wear a "White Hat" or a "Black Hat" depending on the issue and who you talk to.
But the most important thing since I didn't have a true frame of reference was keeping my ears open, asking questions and, quite frankly, not getting into internet tussles with my coworkers about issues I really didn't have a grasp of.
The two most important things my freshman year were my strange ability to remember names and my two OPEN ear lobes.
I'm a passionate "NO" on the TA. I know too many senior guys that are going to get hosed and too many junior pilots who, probably a lot like me in the late 1990's, that relatively understand the language in principle, but need to throttle back and start asking some grey hairs around the pilot lounge (NOT on the internet) what they think in order to build a deeper pool of perspective.
My opinion only. Don't have to like it, or agree with it, nor do I need you to, but it is what it is.
You mean the person charged with running our DOT drug screening program wasn't a medical professional before the lawsuit? Get out! Oh.. Wait.
Seggy
Well-Known Member
You mean the person charged with running our DOT drug screening program wasn't a medical professional before the lawsuit? Get out! Oh.. Wait.
Like I said, look what happens when you outsource crew scheduling!
PeanuckleCRJ
Poodle Wrangler
Good. Because I'm 1 and 1.
Unfortunately probably going to have to take that to 1 and 2 on this one.It's particularly amazing seeing all the traditional yes voters coming out of the woodworks as very staunch no votes on this one. Marcus is speaking out of his posterior when he says you never meet a yes voter. That is not the case at southern jets- guys that vote yes typically do so openly. All but one of the DL regulars on APC that were very loud yes voters on 2012 are saying absolutely not on this one. It is similar conversation in the instructor lounge- those types are typically yes men and when that turns to no.... that is a remarkable swing. These are guys (both the group that I know well on APC and the instructors) that have never voted no their entire 20 or 30+ year careers.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
PeanuckleCRJ said:Good. Because I'm 1 and 1.
I'm still hopeful that you're going to wise up.
Good. Because I'm 1 and 1.
It's particularly amazing seeing all the traditional yes voters coming out of the woodworks as very staunch no votes on this one. Marcus is speaking out of his posterior when he says you never meet a yes voter. That is not the case at southern jets- guys that vote yes typically do so openly. All but one of the DL regulars on APC that were very loud yes voters on 2012 are saying absolutely not on this one. That is a remarkable swing. These are guys that have never voted no their entire 20 or 30+ year careers.
Oh lord. It's because he wasn't around last time.
Generally we're a "yes" voter airline.
A TA comes out, people get mad in certain circles, then people speak in strange terms of "Dammit, I'm having a baby, money is money" and then they vote yes.
For about six months no one talks about it at all, the sun rises, the sun sets.
Then the company will, traditionally, start exploiting loopholes in the contractual language. Grievances are filed, sat on for months, anger grows and their comes a SLOA clarifying the language or a capitulation by the union that "We'll have to correct that in the future"
Then the "yes" voters become hard to find.
This time around, the pool of people participating on various forums and in social media has exploded. The traditional "Kool Aid" drinkers are hurt, almost on an emotional level, the normal rabble rousers are steaming and the only people (again, I know a LOT of SouthernJetters from being around for almost two decades) that are satisfied, somewhat, with the TA are parts of the MEC, the chairman, SOME of the P2P's and the environment is very different than anything I have seen in 18 years.
Does it mean it will get rejected? I have no idea. But as bad as this sounds, if you weren't around to see the environment from the last TA, one really doesn't have a frame of reference for this.
Will it pass? I have no idea. It probably will. Or it probably won't, but I do understand that every percentage over 51% tells the board of directors that Anderson spent too much on labor costs and he will have to answer for that. Remember, declaring "widespread acceptance and ratification of an industry leading TA" that's going to get released to the news services only requires 51%
This is different. VERY different. It is. And it's comical for some to say that it isn't.
Different enough to reject the TA? Who knows.
Trip7
Well-Known Member
That's the problem with this- there is a lot of gray with wiggle room for the company on how they handle it. It could go great, but it could turn into a real mess real quick, too.
The FAA thing is a good add, there are good gains in scope (with the big x-factor that is the block hours vs eask).
I've actually rattled enough cages to where they are going to rework the math on the LCA thing. 2% relative seniority hit was actually a best case number. I finally wrangled it out of them today that it actually was more like 2-5% (they just somehow forgot to mention that at the road show). New York, ATL, and DTW FOs will be affected the most since those are newhire bases. And then they added on that they are going to get more detail.... the plot thickens.
This is the best negotiating environment we will perhaps ever see. I was expecting to be underwhelmed, not hit with a few real wild cards in gives with very modest pay bumps.
I love the letter "we will not sell this thing" from "puppy" the day before his "I have a scream" speech.
They CLEARLY stated at the road show that the AVERAGE effect was 2% company wide and obviously the effect would be higher in new hire bases. Folks either have selective hearing or are so emotional they hear what they want to hear. Some even took the 2% number to mean only 2% of FOs are affected. So now that rumor is being paraded around as ALPA "Selling"
Ayi Yaya! I fear the madness will never stop.
Trip7
Well-Known Member
Good. Because I'm 1 and 1.
It's particularly amazing seeing all the traditional yes voters coming out of the woodworks as very staunch no votes on this one. Marcus is speaking out of his posterior when he says you never meet a yes voter. That is not the case at southern jets- guys that vote yes typically do so openly. All but one of the DL regulars on APC that were very loud yes voters on 2012 are saying absolutely not on this one. It is similar conversation in the instructor lounge- those types are typically yes men and when that turns to no.... that is a remarkable swing. These are guys (both the group that I know well on APC and the instructors) that have never voted no their entire 20 or 30+ year careers.
That statement is still bugging you huh? I was not speaking literally. Obviously you can find yes voters. But it's ALOT easier to find a No voter even when a contract passes by 70%.
Social Media has been crazy this year and they may have been helped by new guys coming on property and the older guys embracing technological tools like Facebook in the recent years.
Trip7
Well-Known Member
Yup. Folks hear medical professional and the wild conspiracy theories start. Theme of the PTC Roadshow was don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant
mastermags
Well-Known Member *giggity*
Seggy
Well-Known Member
Oh, BTW, in California, one is allowed, per state law, to use your sick time for the illness of a family member. So, hypothetically thinking, you are LAX based, your wife gets a horrific illness, you call in sick for 45 days to be with her, does she have to provide her medical charts to this third party outsourced company her medical information? Or will a doctors note be enough?
The UALMEC fought this battle and won.
The UALMEC fought this battle and won.
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kellwolf
Piece of Trash
I can tell you how it works here and how it worked at Pinnacle. If you were flying day trips and had to call in for 3 of them, it was and is one occurrence. It was spelled out in the policy that if the sick calls occurred within 7 days, it was one occurrence. I had one time at Pinnacle I was fighting off a nasty bug where I called in for a 3 day, had two days off and called in on another 3 day. Since the calls were within 7 days of each other, it was one occurrence. IMO, PINNACLE'S policy was less restrictive than the "days counted" policy Delta is using, and they were pretty darn heavy handed with everyone.
And those that think calling in 4 times in a 365 day period is a lot, you're either super human or, as others have said, don't have kids. I think it should just be automatic that you have a kid, you get intermittent FMLA for those days someone is gonna have to stay home with them.
Seggy
Well-Known Member
Uber like!
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
And then apparently the guys at SWA gave @ZapBrannigan a call sign in class even though he didn't want one......
Autothrust Blue
Welcome aboard the Washington State Ferries
I was going to say, I've been sick three times this year - it's been a bad year creeping cruditis airlineritis wise (90+/month and loving it) and that's without a herd of children around. Under our current policy of "meh," I'm in no trouble (or even under scrutiny) over having approximately average reliability.
What does substantiation look like for that, anyway?
Or your mom or dad or whomever.
What does substantiation look like for that, anyway?