Delta Pilots Vote to Authorize Strike by ~95%

[CapnJim]

Here's some Basic Airline Economics, as I have come to understand them:

(Anti-union) + (Pro-lazzes-faire)=

 

[TonyC]

Next, the unions. Ironically, it is the unions more than anything that is hurting the profession. Yet most people don't see it that way. The union will command higher wages for one group of employees at the expense of another. It's Econ 101. If something costs more, the less of it people will want. So by actually demanding higher wages this is having a negative effect on the total amount of pilot jobs. More money is being spent on wages than say, investing in new airplanes or expanding routes and marketing opportunities, thereby creating more jobs for pilots. The best thing the pilot group could do is completely get rid of the union.

I'm sure glad that there's also an Econ 201, and 301, and 450, and 590 ...


The system you describe is far more complex than the simple closed system with one supplier of one product and fickle buyers - - it's a good place to start, but you can't stop there and proclaim yourself an expert in economics. As an example, if the Company needs X number of pilots to fly Y number of airplanes on Z number of legs each day, a 5% pay raise is not going to force the Company to cut back on 5% of their daily departures.


Go study Southwest airlines and then come back and tell us how unions are destroying the profession.






.

 

[NTXPilot]

I never proclaimed myself as an expert in economics, in fact I did the contrary. I'm suggesting this as simply that: starting point of viewing the issue, and yes the issue is complex. In the above paragraph I'm speaking generally about the issue, not trying to analyze Delta's point of view. The more money that is spent in wages is money that cannot be directed elsewhere. That's all that means.

The reason Southwest is so successful and contradicts my opinion is because of their culture. Yes they do have a union. But Southwest fosters a great management-employee culture and communication, something that many other carriers fail in comparison.

Does anyone else enjoy these debates? If not, we can all just "agree to disagree".

 

[CapnJim]

I enjoy debate thoroughly! But I think this one is tantamount to going on a NAACP forum and telling them what a bad idea you think Affirmative Action is.

"Hey, it's just my opinion!"

You've made it clear that you're more worried about the profitability of the airline than the welfare of the employees. You've also affirmed that Southwest's culture is key to thier success, yet in utter contradiction in the previous paragraph you espouse the idea that wages should be directed elsewhere. And you somehow believe that more jobs at less pay is a good thing. Not to mention the fact that you're spweing all this out on a forum owned and operated by, of all airlines in America, a Delta pilot. Therefore, as one of the many Senior Member of Jetcareers, I am duty bound to deliver the following:

 

[ComplexHiAv8r]

I could read 100 books about neurosurgery. However, it doesn't mean that I'm about to engage in debate with neurosurgeons about maladies of the cerebral cortex and look bewildered when they ask "And you've been a doctor for how long?"

Did you stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night???

 

[jtrain609]

Anybody that thinks that pilots, at any level, are paid what they are worth, is full of it. You say pilots are only able to be paid market value for their time. So what's the market value of...

-Fighting an aircraft down to the ground with a 10 knot tailwind because ATC won't turn the airport around QUITE yet

-Having the judgement and experience to pick their way around thunderstorms

-Having the judgement and experience to not hit another aircraft that ATC just vectored into you

What's the market rate for those things? Because you're not buying a pilot; you're being a product that is going to prevent you from getting killed. What's your life worth. I know we hate those arguments, but unless you can do the skill yourself (such as fly a plane, or hang drywall, or whatever else here), then you need to pay up for it.

So what's it worth to you? What do you think my students think I'm worth when they say, "Oh come on, the crosswind isn't THAT bad" and convince me to go up on a flight and then are sitting there nice and quiet while I bring the plane back because the crosswind component was outside of the ability level? What am I worth to them at that point? $500? Maybe $1,000?

Economics is MUCH more complicated than supply and demand.

 

[Chris_Ford]

Anybody that thinks that pilots, at any level, are paid what they are worth, is full of it. You say pilots are only able to be paid market value for their time. So what's the market value of...

NOBODY IS PAID WHAT THEY ARE WORTH. What about the guy shoveling elephant crap at the circus? There's not enough money in the world to pay that guy what he deserves.

 

[tonyw]

The reason Southwest is so successful and contradicts my opinion is because of their culture. Yes they do have a union. But Southwest fosters a great management-employee culture and communication, something that many other carriers fail in comparison.

And one of the reasons why they enjoy these relations is because guess what they did right after September 11? Shaft their employees? Threaten to go into Chapter 11 to get labor contracts ripped up?

No, instead, they kept ALL of their employees who wanted to stay, gave buyouts to those who wanted to leave, and kept their pilots at the top of the pay scale.

That's right. The pilots at SWA are the highest paid 737 pilots, higher than their counterparts at those evil legacy carriers.

I had an interesting conversation with someone who does SWA's training programs at a trade show I was attending. You know how in the Frontier FA training show, they say, look to your left and look to your right. One of you will not make it?

She said that is so not Southwest. Southwest would NEVER do that, and in fact, they did something where at the beginning of their FA training, they tell the people there they will do everything to help them make it.

You think that doesn't boost morale and make people happy about working for Southwest?

If you want to have employees who aren't fighting you every step of the way, it might be a good idea to not treat them like crap.

 

[NTXPilot]

I enjoy debate thoroughly! But I think this one is tantamount to going on a NAACP forum and telling them what a bad idea you think Affirmative Action is.

"Hey, it's just my opinion!"

You've made it clear that you're more worried about the profitability of the airline than the welfare of the employees. You've also affirmed that Southwest's culture is key to thier success, yet in utter contradiction in the previous paragraph you espouse the idea that wages should be directed elsewhere. And you somehow believe that more jobs at less pay is a good thing. Not to mention the fact that you're spweing all this out on a forum owned and operated by, of all airlines in America, a Delta pilot. Therefore, as one of the many Senior Member of Jetcareers, I am duty bound to deliver the following:

Good to know someone else enjoys the debate. Yes I am worried about the profitability of the airline. By the airline being profitable it will take care of the welfare of the employees. Since the airline is not profitable the welfare of the employees is suffering through pay cuts, reduced benefits, ect. because costs have to be adjusted. If the airline is profitable then the employee welfare will increase--Southwests pilot pay increase. By having some of the best payscales now in the industry, Southwest has their fair share of people knocking on their door. They get to pick and choose the highest quality of applicants.

Correct me if I'm wrong on this: Southwests' highest pay levels were not near the high legacy pay grades pre-9/11, right? This allowed them to allocate capital to other things. Buying more airplanes than leasing. In the long term this put the company in a stronger financial position than some of the legacy carriers that leased out a greater percentage of their fleet. Like I said let me know if I'm off on that one.

Hey, y'all were talkin about it so I opined. Hope there was nothing wrong with that. BTW, affirmative action IS a bad idea.

 

[NTXPilot]

Tony,
Not to mention the Southwest business model was built to better absorb the effects of 9/11. The days of $2,000 business tickets were over and the legacies were in trouble because that was their business model. I think Southwest has got it right on.

 

[DE727UPS]

"The best thing the pilot group could do is completely get rid of the union"

And then...

"I've never flown for an airline or worked in the business....I would never assume to know more than the people who work in the industry day to day"

What is it about college kids that makes them such experts in things they have no experience in? You read a book and study economics and it makes YOU qualified to tell me I should get rid of MY union? Unions aren't perfect but I shudder to think what my job would be like without one. Or this career, for that matter.

I would guess that the vast majority of union airline pilots in this country would laugh at you to your face with that first quote, especially considering you have no experience in the industry. I know I would.

Tell ya what, come back in 20 years after you have a job at Fedex, UPS, or Southwest and tell me you still feel the same way. And that's a pilot job, not a management job, which would be right up your alley.

 

[flyover]

Correct me if I'm wrong on this: Southwests' highest pay levels were not near the high legacy pay grades pre-9/11, right? This allowed them to allocate capital to other things. Buying more airplanes than leasing. In the long term this put the company in a stronger financial position than some of the legacy carriers that leased out a greater percentage of their fleet. Like I said let me know if I'm off on that one.

The simple point is: it doesn't matter what your pay rates are in this industry. What matters is your CASM. It doesn't matter if your airline is union or non-union as long as it has a competitive CASM. If you can achieve a competitive CASM with well paid union employees then you get to carry on, if not it's time for a new plan.

 

[NTXPilot]

Yes, that was a blatant contradiction on my part and the former quote was an inappropriate thing to say. What I should have said was: That in my experience, from what I have studied, unions have done more harm than good. The latter statement does not suggest what anyone should do with the union.

 

[tonyw]

Tony,
Not to mention the Southwest business model was built to better absorb the effects of 9/11. The days of $2,000 business tickets were over and the legacies were in trouble because that was their business model.

You're right.

Know what it costs to fly business class from IAD to SIN? It costs around $7K. And guess what? That section was full on the ANA flight I was on.

Do you think Patricia Russo is flying coach when she flies from EWR to CDG when Alcatel and Lucent merge? Business class there is about $5K. First class, where she's going to be if she doesn't take the corporate jet, is probably double that.

When I flew to the Paris Air Show, business and first were completely full both ways.

So you're right. The days of the $2K business tickets are gone. Try much, much higher, and they will pay for them.

 

[derg]

"Donny, you're out of your league."

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

Here is a question that not sure if it has been addressed in either thread. When and if the pilots strike how is DL going to get there 400-500 planes back on property in ATL? Planes will be stuck at outstations like PHX,LAX,SEA etc. (Doug's prolly like who cares...and I agree) how are they gonna get home. No pilots *I believe* in a union can ferry them home because that would be scabbing...right? Which leaves management pilots because there non-union. Does DL have 400 management pilots? Probably not!

Leave it idling on the taxiway...

 

[derg]

Management pilots? There are pilots that are in management in various positions, but they're still bound by the rules about scabbing.

Personally, in my opinion, if they're dumb enough to press for a strike, do you think I give a rats arse about a plane stuck in Baton Rouge?

 

[B767Driver]

Here is a question that not sure if it has been addressed in either thread. When and if the pilots strike how is DL going to get there 400-500 planes back on property in ATL? Planes will be stuck at outstations like PHX,LAX,SEA etc. (Doug's prolly like who cares...and I agree) how are they gonna get home. No pilots *I believe* in a union can ferry them home because that would be scabbing...right? Which leaves management pilots because there non-union. Does DL have 400 management pilots? Probably not!

Leave it idling on the taxiway...

The only pilot exempt from the strike would be the Executive VP of Flight Operations. He could go to work and not be considered a scab. No one else is exempt.

 

[mpenguin1]

Doug

Some people are banging on their war drums about a potential strike, I am hoping that something happens that makes a strike unnecessary, got my fingers crossed for you!

 

[NW004]

If they go on strike, Delta can really come down all together, and then they will have no jobs! Help the Airline get by tough times. Dont make it worse then it is already. Thats my opinion, and i know i may get flamed by it, but its very true.