Delta pilots Picket at ATL
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Aero_Engineer
Well-Known Member
Understand the fact that I am against that too but there are only a couple of managers on hand and thousands of pilots flying for the company, so sooner or later they will run out of money, look at what happened to ENRON were their employees treated fairly? NO Did the management get big fat bonuses? YES. It is a capitalistic country and you have to find a way to survive.
GrantHubbell
New Member
Aero_Engineer said:
Why are you complaining about a good family friend losing his job to a Doctor willing to accept a job that pays less, if you, yourself is willing to fly a plane for less pay than a more qualified pilot, or one who wont work for dirt cheap wages.
Put this into perspective, I am the 20 yr pilot at ABC airline and fly an A320 and then you come along with the shiney jet syndrome (based on your other posts, you are willing to fly for 12-30K and wait it out and when the airline is doing better ask for a raise, which wont be accepted do to the way airlines pay, which is a senority scale) and accept a job at ABC airline b/c u are willing to fly for 80K a year instead of the 100K I was making before the 20% pay cut. What do you think of that?
Now don't get me going about how the economy is •. For one, unemployment is below the 5% mark, and that is the first time in five years, so basically the lowest since September 11 ,and even before September 11 the unemployment rate was under the 5% range. So the unemployment rate is approx. the same as it was before the economy crashed on 9/11. Also don't forget that Corporate profits increased to 59.3 billion in the 2nd quarter of 2005. The GDP has increased at 4.1% in the 3rd quarter of 2005. Personal income has rasied 0.4% in December 2005. I could give you the facts all day if I wanted, but I won't. Do it yourself---- http://www.bea.gov/
Maximilian_Jenius
Super User
Aero_Engineer said:
Armen it's not about the fact that someone will do your job for cheaper then you so that is why we should all conform. It's about decency and self respect. Just because someone is a cheap • doesn't mean that you have to follow suit if you first have something called self esteem and self respect. If your offered a job at an airline that wants to pay you crap wages to fly a big jet like a A320 you *should* tell them exactly how fast they can go and • themselves. If your already at said company employed as a pilot and they say we want to slash your pay for their mistakes you say • no and fight the big fight to keep wages and QOL acceptable. If management doesn't want to acquiesce you strike and if absolutely necessary you STMFD!
You'll probably say well then your out of a job. But if your smart you know that this industry is ever turbulent and have have a huge "strike fund" built up for when and if I strike occurs so that bills will get paid and your life can go on for "X" ammont of time until your gainfully employed at another company. Would it suck yes. But would you have self respect and be able to hold your head up with pride and look at yourself in the mirror ever morning? Yes!
Ripper3785
New Member
Aero_Engineer said:
Only a couple of managers huh? Where do you get this info? Are you really of the mindset that the cost of paying pilots is what is hurting the airlines?
And just so you know, in the airline industry as a pilot YOU DON'T ASK FOR A RAISE LATER ON. Who are you going to ask? Mgt? Man that would be a riot. This isn't an incentive-based career like the carpenter or 'office worker' you mentioned might be. Get a clue.
How do you pass a substance screening? It appears you are on some amazing stuff. Yes you'll need to pass one before you fly that A320 for 30k.
Aero_Engineer
Well-Known Member
No matter how much you guys fantasize about how every single pilot should walk off the negotiating table if it is not the pay they want, It Ain't Gonna Happen.
Most of the airlines that we have now somehow cut their pilots wages, Have they walk off or have they said F*** you AS or UA or DL or some other airline? No they have accepted it and they are still flying.
You won't ever be able to change this, there will always be someone like me who will consider taking the 30K job and also will have a side job as a private teacher to make a comfortable living.
You don't wanna take the job, well tough love sit there and cry over the fact that I took it and now there is nothing for you to fly except am old rusty 172 with a student who hardly speaks English or is so hard to taech that sometimes you just wanna choke him in that tiny cockpit.
Most of the airlines that we have now somehow cut their pilots wages, Have they walk off or have they said F*** you AS or UA or DL or some other airline? No they have accepted it and they are still flying.
You won't ever be able to change this, there will always be someone like me who will consider taking the 30K job and also will have a side job as a private teacher to make a comfortable living.
You don't wanna take the job, well tough love sit there and cry over the fact that I took it and now there is nothing for you to fly except am old rusty 172 with a student who hardly speaks English or is so hard to taech that sometimes you just wanna choke him in that tiny cockpit.
GrantHubbell
New Member
Actually, I'd much rather leave this profession for another career if pilot jobs pay 30K.
BoilerPilot2007
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately, pilots are (or have become) assets. We are expendable. We make bigger assets (airplanes) work, by pushing buttons. Pilots are not decision-makers - management is. As far as management is concerned, their job is to make a profit by either raising ticket prices (aint gonna happen), or reducing variable costs, the largest of which is labor.
Simple management. For instance, many blue collar factory workers are willing to work for $14/hr because it puts bread on the table. Pilots are in much the same way, factory workers. We run a plant (airplane), thus helping provide a service for the companies in which we work. That is all. In general, we offer no other service to the company.
Salaries will continue to decrease until the airlines can turn a profit. By then, the chances of them rising are slim. What would management's incentive be to raise salaries? There will ALWAYS be someone willing to work for less than you are.
How much do you REALLY want to fly airplanes? The sacrifices (for now) are worth it. We'll see in 10 years.
Peace -
Evan
Simple management. For instance, many blue collar factory workers are willing to work for $14/hr because it puts bread on the table. Pilots are in much the same way, factory workers. We run a plant (airplane), thus helping provide a service for the companies in which we work. That is all. In general, we offer no other service to the company.
Salaries will continue to decrease until the airlines can turn a profit. By then, the chances of them rising are slim. What would management's incentive be to raise salaries? There will ALWAYS be someone willing to work for less than you are.
How much do you REALLY want to fly airplanes? The sacrifices (for now) are worth it. We'll see in 10 years.
Peace -
Evan
Aero_Engineer
Well-Known Member
BoilerPilot2007 said:
Thank you, at least someone understands the facts using logic not so hot blooded and how we "PILOTS" are the best and have to be paid the most! It is just a job servicing others as it was mentioned earlier. If you don't do it someone else WILL!!!!!
jrh
Well-Known Member
Aero_Engineer said:
I'm curious...have you flown professionally at all yet? And when I say "professionally" I mean "any flying that you're paid to do." Could be flight instructing, banner towing, aerial photography, anything.
The reason I ask is because I'm a CFI, pretty low on the totem pole in the whole scheme of things, but it has made me think about what I want out of this career. I gained a new perspective when I finished my own flight training and started working.
Not that I was ever the type to say, "I'll fly for nothing." But working 10, 12, 14 hour days, six days/week as an instructor, making the equivalent of minimum wage, made me see that this is a job, not personal entertainment. Don't get me wrong...I love my job, but it has showed me that this isn't all fun and games. What it comes down to is that I want to enjoy my life. I would be willing to have low pay if it came with great QOL. Or I would consider low QOL of it involved great pay. What I see now though, is at a lot of employers, it's low pay and low QOL at the same time.
Everybody quit? You're right, I don't see that happening either. That's not realistic.
What I do see happening is people not getting into it to begin with. I know more and more people who have no desire to fly regional airlines. They'd rather settle into a part time CFI job, or charter, or some other job with a good QOL, and wait to see what happens with the industry. They'd rather make a little less money and have a much higher QOL, even if that means flying is part time for them. Essentially, they're leaving the industry before they got into it. Sooner or later the pool of people willing to work for peanuts is going to dry up.
Flying an A320 for $30k/year sounds cool when you're a freshly minted 250 hour commercial pilot, but after you do it for a while, you're going to start seeing the downsides and $30k/year might not seem worth it anymore.
I don't mean to talk down to you with this. I doubt I'm much higher on this industry's ladder than you...but I think before long you'll see that some jobs are worth it, others aren't.
jrh
Well-Known Member
BoilerPilot2007 said:
Well said. The way I see it, pay is going to be low for a while, but incoming pilots to the industry aren't going to take it forever. They might fly for a while, but they'll decide to get out after a few years, rather than spend an entire lifetime as a pilot.
Either the industry will become a revolving door of people only lasting a few years before quitting, or compensation will have to go up.
whew.. i'd like to see you say that after you bring one down with smoke in the cockpit or an engine out (not asking for that to happen of course!)! it's not just a "servicing" job.. it's a job that requires skill and not everyone has the qualifications much less the know how to take one of these birds and land it successfully in an emergency - THAT is what the pilot is there for...pure and simple...Aero_Engineer said:
if your in danger 80% of your life -> are you going to say your "life" is worth 30K a year based on the fact that your also gone 80% of the time? come on.. think about it...
at some point, the last dollup of water is going to fall and pilots are gonna wage war and they will strike because they know they can work at McD's and/or burger king.. hell, even In-n-Out for a much higher wage during an 8 hr shift AND be at home every night!!!
it's not necessarily about being paid "the most", it's about being compensated for what your WORTH!
BoilerPilot2007
Well-Known Member
Kristie said:
Totally! And when you get a plane with 200 people on the ground safely in low IFR with 2 engines out, a hydraulic leak, and a faulty nose gear, the pilot is worth well more than whatever they're paid: they're worth every life on board the aircraft - essentially making them "priceless."
But the fact of the matter remains, that's the job: to get people on the ground safely. Unfortunately it doesn't make pilots any less "service-based," since they're still performing their service, albeit under very stressful circumstances.
I'm definitely not taking sides. I want to be a pilot just as much as most people here. Just stating the facts as I've come to realize them.
adreamer
Well-Known Member
:yeahthat:
Aero_engineer, I understand where you coming from. I respect your opinion. Even with all my ratings(with one engine failure experience), I am still learning about flying. However, you are suggesting pilots should have the attitude of "take whatever company's ask us and hope things would turn around after few years." That attitude would not be good. Give you an example based on what I know. It may not completely accurate.
NWA managements are trying to replace FAs to foreign nationals aka out-sourcing. About 5 years ago or so, NWA mechanics union agree with management for training people outside their union. Guess what happened when it is time to negotiation, union strikes. The next move from the management said "ok, all of you are fired." and replace them with those outsouring mechanics.
If you think you can fly A320 for 30K, go for it. I am not going to tell what you need to do. However, when it is time for contract negotiation and you are looking for raise, management will do the same thing to you - looking for someone who would do your job for cheaper price. There is a rumor, according to someone I know, NWA management try to outsource pilot job to foreign nationals also. food for thought
adreamer
Purdue_Pilot
New Member
Best debate i've read since i joined...
The problem is the fact that each one of us have an extreme amount of dedication and passion for aviation. Definately a great thing to have. But you don't get to an airline haphazardly. You strive and work as hard as you can for years. With the goal of landing that airline interview. It would be sooo difficult to throw it back in their faces in order to prove a point.
I don't agree with the situation the least bit, but if that shiny jet at 30K is my best option, I will most certainly take it up.
It's our passion for the birds that drives us to learn to fly. It's our passion for bigger, faster, and higher that drives us to that 30K job. And as long as we have a passion for flight, we will fly for what the starting salary is. Hopefully you veteran pilots can teach us the ropes of the unions to secure our future. If not, we'll enjoy those shiny jets as long as financially possible...
The problem is the fact that each one of us have an extreme amount of dedication and passion for aviation. Definately a great thing to have. But you don't get to an airline haphazardly. You strive and work as hard as you can for years. With the goal of landing that airline interview. It would be sooo difficult to throw it back in their faces in order to prove a point.
I don't agree with the situation the least bit, but if that shiny jet at 30K is my best option, I will most certainly take it up.
It's our passion for the birds that drives us to learn to fly. It's our passion for bigger, faster, and higher that drives us to that 30K job. And as long as we have a passion for flight, we will fly for what the starting salary is. Hopefully you veteran pilots can teach us the ropes of the unions to secure our future. If not, we'll enjoy those shiny jets as long as financially possible...