Delta/Endeavor SSP Extended to All Pilots

Autothrust Blue said:
American largely does whatever Delta does with about a 2-year delay. (Shhhh. Don't clue them in!)

2012, in ATL: "Wifi equipped large cabin RJs!"
2014, in DFW/PHX: "Wifi equipped large cabin RJs! And double breasted coats coming soon too."
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Parker is still complaining about profit sharing.

I think he's still sore about the KDMD t-shirts.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
Assume myself and Person X are on the same seniority list at (choose your Eagle or DCI carrier here). Person X's DOH being chronologically earlier than mine is perhaps the dumbest reason for Person X to be given an opportunity to work for Airline Y before I do, in what is a nominally meritocratic selection process. If their experience, resume, education, records are better then sure. If the only thing that differentiates me from Person X their DOH then I'm not sure what, exactly, the point was of even having the second carrier at all.

Now let's further assume that you are are a negotiator, on behalf of (choose union here) and you are offered an SSP or flow agreement or (whatever item) in exchange for the evisceration of already mediocre pay rates, work rules, and quality of life. I personally would prefer to have my money now, and make my own road, rather than wait for a job that is not necessarily fait accompli. When the music stops, as so surely it will someday, I would prefer to have a solid job to rely upon until the numbers are in a better mood, rather than having bargained away things that I might need for purposes of keeping a roof over my head.

In short: Flow agreements and streamlined selection rub me the wrong way, because in my opinion, the trade that is made for them further devalue an already undervalued job.
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Your points are valid but one thing worth considering is none of these flow agreements are the same as another in regards to how they began.

For instance, NWA ALPA was attempting to at least offer jobs to its furloughees as scope was loosened during bankruptcy, at the carrier that was to begin flying as a result of that scope change. When it finally came time to staff the operation, only three out of hundreds took the opportunity, and the seniority list was populated with off-the-street new hires. The flow language, with the flow-down section being about ten times longer and much more specific than the flow-up section, remained in place despite what I understand to be a different demographic than was originally envisioned.
 
Nick said:
Your points are valid but one thing worth considering is none of these flow agreements are the same as another in regards to how they began.

For instance, NWA ALPA was attempting to at least offer jobs to its furloughees as scope was loosened during bankruptcy, at the carrier that was to begin flying as a result of that scope change. When it finally came time to staff the operation, only three out of hundreds took the opportunity, and the seniority list was populated with off-the-street new hires. The flow language, with the flow-down section being about ten times longer and much more specific than the flow-up section, remained in place despite what I understand to be a different demographic than was originally envisioned.
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That's good backstory, thank you. I was vaguely aware of what the Compass 'arrangement' at Northwest was intended to be, but I appreciate the insight.
 
Derg said:
Parker is still complaining about profit sharing.

I think he's still sore about the KDMD t-shirts.
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Here at the U-Boat Fleet, I just now qualified for financial performance rewards. I was expecting the small check for our operational kind (it was a rough quarter) but was pleasantly surprised at how large the financial bonus was. And I felt motivated. It used to be we got even larger checks; things change. I like having some performance-based compensation. It tends to make people work that much harder to make the operation better.

Mr Parker should basically Ctrl-A Ctrl-C Ctrl-V the Delta plan and hope it works.
 
Derg said:
Parker is still complaining about profit sharing.

I think he's still sore about the KDMD t-shirts.
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Its not a good way to pay - you deserve better. Here, take this delta pay rates + 3% and concessions in work rules and be happy.

Love,
Dougie
 
Career handcuffs are awesome.

Instead of getting hired someplace on your own merits you now get to get hired after your lucky lottery number has been selected - and in this case - even then it's not a guaranteed job.

Enjoy it, I think.
 
surreal1221 said:
Career handcuffs are awesome.

Instead of getting hired someplace on your own merits you now get to get hired after your lucky lottery number has been selected - and in this case - even then it's not a guaranteed job.

Enjoy it, I think.
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In the meantime, we just bargained away your (whatever) for it!

This is not a good, viable, etc. strategy.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
In the meantime, we just bargained away your (whatever) for it!

This is not a good, viable, etc. strategy.
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We didn't "bargain away" anything. We no longer had any pull to retain what we had.

You guys know that the company approached the judge with something much worse than 12/4 caps: reset the longevity clock (year 1 pay) for CA upgrades.

Loaded gun, meet temple of Pinnacolaba pilots' heads.
 
SpiceWeasel said:
We didn't "bargain away" anything. We no longer had any pull to retain what we had.

You guys know that the company approached the judge with something much worse than 12/4 caps: reset the longevity clock (year 1 pay) for CA upgrades.

Loaded gun, meet temple of Pinnacolaba pilots' heads.
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Right, bankruptcy.

-sighs-

I'm primarily concerned with the carriers who are doing this of their own volition, not under the loaded-gun of Chapter 11.
 
Good luck to the 9E FOs! Prep hard....remember there is no quota in either direction. Everyone that is there can be hired if they make the score.

I'm all for giving up profit sharing before the next downturn... for an additional 25% on top of additional reasonable gains.
 
Derg said:
My American buddy was all "we got your rates".

Then I told him that our contract "expires" in 2015 and we get about 20% of gross (roughly) in profit sharing.

He was ready for war.
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The company actually offered better rates than yours and it was turned down.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
Okay, well, almost nobody cares. So here it is.

Here's my favorite integration strategy when it comes to regional airlines and mainline carriers:
61b7_swingline_stapler.jpg


In the interest of background, I had a "guaranteed" job at 'merican once. Guaranteed is in quotes, because I didn't have a seniority number at American Airlines, merely an Eagle number and the 'opportunity' to, someday, in seniority order, move over there. I gave it up. I figured I could have less gray hair and still have a better job, than waiting for the 3,100 pilots on the list ahead of me to do their thing and flow. I additionally believe that no amount of future possible jobs at what may be an entirely different company is worth bargaining away existing pay and protections for, unless you're just going to take my airline's list and staple it to the bottom of another airline's list. That's the sort of 'streamlined selection' and flow I can get behind.

Assume myself and Person X are on the same seniority list at (choose your Eagle or DCI carrier here). Person X's DOH being chronologically earlier than mine is perhaps the dumbest reason for Person X to be given an opportunity to work for Airline Y before I do, in what is a nominally meritocratic selection process. If their experience, resume, education, records are better then sure. If the only thing that differentiates me from Person X their DOH then I'm not sure what, exactly, the point was of even having the second carrier at all.

Now let's further assume that you are are a negotiator, on behalf of (choose union here) and you are offered an SSP or flow agreement or (whatever item) in exchange for the evisceration of already mediocre pay rates, work rules, and quality of life. I personally would prefer to have my money now, and make my own road, rather than wait for a job that is not necessarily fait accompli. When the music stops, as so surely it will someday, I would prefer to have a solid job to rely upon until the numbers are in a better mood, rather than having bargained away things that I might need for purposes of keeping a roof over my head.

In short: Flow agreements and streamlined selection rub me the wrong way, because in my opinion, the trade that is made for them further devalue an already undervalued job.
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This is why I have articulate friends. They can say what I think in a more well thought out manner. Then all I have to do is come by and "like" it and I look smart too!
 
DE727UPS said:
Be careful. They will want their profit sharing back. It was a good deal when they weren't making squat but not so much now. At big corporation school management learns that the 20% should go to the shareholders. Not the hourly help. But good on you for getting it in the first place.
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Oh yes, fully agree.

Primarily why caution people at heading over the APC and thinking they're actually comparing contracts when they browse the pay scales.

I'm confident anyone with two licks of sense understands that it's a slight of hand and it will all disappear overnight with a new round of fresh B-school grads.
 
PeanuckleCRJ said:
Good luck to the 9E FOs! Prep hard....remember there is no quota in either direction. Everyone that is there can be hired if they make the score.
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That's right there is no direction for the quota. One week it'll be 80%, then it'll be 10% with an overall average under 40% (last I saw). Study real hard and if they say no just remember to get the hell out.
 
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