Delta Disqualifiers

He'll have a tough time getting on with any good paying carrier like that, though.

I recognize and accept this fact. While it might be nice to work for a major airline, the reality is that I almost certainly never will. That's ok. I just want people to realize that these hiring practices result in a circular dependency on education that strips incredible—and increasing—amounts of money from people. I want people to realize that these hiring practices benefit those from middle-class or upper-middle-class backgrounds—people who grow up with the certain knowledge that they're going to college after high school. I also want people to be aware that the abilities to learn, to think logically, to succeed, to achieve goals and to achieve an educated state aren't directly related to paying money to an institute of higher learning.

I want people to realize that these hiring practices directly exclude people like me.

If you don't like me, that may seem like a bonus. I don't know how people feel in that regard, or how people would like sharing a cockpit with me. I don't know how any of you would be to share a cockpit with, either.

That is the way of things.

-Fox
 
Their job listing on alaskaair.com states otherwise. A two-year or four-year degree is preferred, but only a high school diploma is required.

I was looking at this:
https://careers.horizonair.com/Horizon-Pilots-Job.shtml

Which takes precedence?

I'd actually bet that not having a degree would get you an applicant looked at. Reason? Horizon would have that person for a long time. No real threat of them leaving for a major...

I admit that I'm kinda hoping that that might be the case.

-Fox
 
Obeisant obedience is not a quality I can respect, and it's not a quality that makes for a good pilot. We kinda know this, but we still collectively look askance at people who question the establishment as if it's somehow different.

I will grant, though, that "whining" about things is very counterproductive; having a good attitude about things and trying to work through problems created by bad management, poor process and the like is far more efficacious (ala @Derg). And always being nice to people never, ever hurts. But you can disagree with someone firmly and still be polite—even best friends—if you can separate the messenger from the message and treat the former with respect.

-Fox

ATN pilot said it's a silly game, and it is. From their point of view, if you can't even handle a silly game then you can't handle the job because I don't know if any of ya'll have noticed, but you can't help but feel like the entire place is a joke when you are at an airport. In fact, being a pilot seems to be about how much BS you can put up with more than anything. Many people, including myself, have taken other paths because of this.

Frankly, you need someone up front who is going to take responsibility for not just himself, the plane, the people, but also the ATC guy who can't get his crap together, the little jerk who won't stop screaming at his parents in back, lately a smelly log in the toilet, etc. Everything, even the stuff he shouldn't have to. This means a person who looks at these silly games and handles them, even when he shouldn't have to.

In short, it's completely unfair, because being a pilot is completely unfair half the time. I admire my friends ability to duke it out in the trenches for that big payoff in the sky later down the road, they are sacrificing much more than they know right now.
 
To my knowledge, there's never been a time that Horizon required a degree. Have you applied?
Not yet, but I very likely will once I hit ATP mins. Probably fall-ish, though I want to get my CFII and need to figure out the ATP written thing.

-Fox
 
Not yet, but I very likely will once I hit ATP mins. Probably fall-ish, though I want to get my CFII and need to figure out the ATP written thing.

-Fox
I'm not 100% on this, but I believe we're working on some sort of program to assist applicants in the ATP written process. I wouldn't pay for anything yet, if I were you.
 
Fox, I understand your disdain, but you have to admit that without college, most people wouldn't bother to educate themselves. I agree it's too expensive. College SHOULD be free in a modern society.

The question becomes is the fight worth the negative impact on your career? You aren't going to change any hiring practices, but you'll definitely limit your own options.

What are your career goals?
 
Read 80% of this thread and it made me feel pretty low as far as prepping myself for a prestigious airline career. My mindset right now is I am fine where I am at, enjoy the flying, and more importantly, enjoy lifting pints with friends and family on my days off. I don't really concern myself with being "tier 1" or my dream airline.

I know when I am old and one foot in the grave the last thing I am going to say to myself is "I wish I worked for XYZ airline".
 
Fox, I understand your disdain, but you have to admit that without college, most people wouldn't bother to educate themselves.

I don't need to admit that. In my opinion, and from my observation, humans have a natural intellectual curiosity and a passion for learning and exploration. Forcing education on many of those people is exactly what beats that passion and curiosity out of them. But we've decided that in our capitalist socioeconomic structure we value the workforce above the individual, and therefore we beat the creativity out of people so that they can interface with other people in a fairly predictable fashion.

Our system of education exists to turn humans into cogs.

The best part is that we make them believe that they're truly free, truly think for themselves, and are truly enlightened. And they may be correct, in a sense--reality is a funny, mutable, incredibly relative thing--but that's not the reality that I choose for myself.

I agree it's too expensive. College SHOULD be free in a modern society.

At a minimum, it should be free. It should also be hard. Not "We'll reduce your life to a number and decide whether that number is good enough for admission" hard, but "We're going to challenge you to learn. We're going to challenge you to excel. We're going to help you determine your aptitudes, interest, and path... but when you find your calling, you will live, eat, sleep and breathe it and we will grow you as a person by having you live within that existence."

If college were free, my objections would be greatly muted.

It is not.

The question becomes is the fight worth the negative impact on your career? You aren't going to change any hiring practices, but you'll definitely limit your own options.

The pragmatic angle emerges. I alluded to it earlier, but I'll address it more directly now that you've raised it.

First, here's my pragmatic answer: I am 35 and working as a pilot. Going to school full time is something I haven't the time (left) or money for. Going to school online is something I haven't the money for or, given my experiences in that direction, interest in.

Now for the subjective: If I'm going to even expend the time it takes to pursue a degree, I want to learn things. I don't want to hash over flat, stale information that I already know or doesn't interest me, taught by instructors who long ago lost any joy they may have ever had in the subject. I have better things to do with my time, like writing books, making music, playing / reffing hockey, doing Judo, racing sailboats, programming, studying things that interest me, learning new languages, building airplanes and so on.

I am enrolled in Embry Riddle Worldwide Online, with credit for my certs and ratings. However, the classes I've taken so far, at $300 per credit hour, have left me violently opposed to continuing that route. It's not a matter of work, it's a matter of value. Even if I could put up with the humiliatingly-bad education content management system (Blackboard), I cannot stomach paying $1100 for an English class that presents information that I learned in the sixth grade, and presents it in a outdated, prescriptivist (and fundamentally wrong!) methodology. The entire thing is a bare shell of an education--worse in its goals than even ATP is at conveying a knowledge of flying on its students. It's all about going through the motions, and I'll be damned if I'm going to just go through the motions, wasting my time and a helluva lot of money just to literally check a box on an application.

Say what you will about me, but I'm unwilling to play that game. It even feels dishonest.

I enrolled in online- and in-person courses at a community college in the Bay Area, strictly for love of learning, studying music theory, audio engineering, recording studio setup and design, and various other art and music classes. That was much better, but I could still see that most of the enrolled students were going through the motions.

Let me try and sum that all up quickly, since I let it get a little bit long:
I understand the pragmatic argument. Flying for a major airline isn't my raison d'etre. (Would add the circumflex but I'm inexplicably typing this on a Windows computer.. which is also why my em-dashes are '--') If it happens, it happens, and I certainly think it'd be fun... but that's really it. I want to have fun. I want to have enough money to eat, enough time to myself to write and do all the things I do, and ideally a job that I'm excited to go to. Ideally I'd work for a company I could be loyal to, and be based somewhere I either have friends or could commute from somewhere I have friends. (That would be SEA, PDX, SFO, really, in that order)

If I cared about money as a long-term goal, I would be making $200k+ in the tech industry right now.

I don't. Quality of life, love of the job, and enough pay so that I can eat good, healthy food and live an active, healthy lifestyle is all I demand.

What are your career goals?

To have fun. To go do something else if what I'm doing stops being fun.

-Fox
 
I'm 48 years old. My high school transcripts in no way, shape or form reflect on the type of man I am today... I agree with you totally, It's borderline insulting to ask a an accomplished military officer for H.S. transcrips..

I'm 38, and already feel like that. High school was 20 years ago, who cares? Not only am I different, our entire world in vastly different. Delta HR is just
 
My college experience was a complete joke and frankly, a waste of money. I got to check that box though, so I win! Oh wait, since I took 6 years to finish because I didn't take out student loans, I still don't qualify. I guess the joke is on me.
 
Fox, for what it's worth, I found Riddle to be as worthless as you did, but I've found SNHU to be much better. Still Blackboard, but my instructors have been great (with one exception) and still seem to have a passion for teaching. Does any of it matter when it comes to flying airplanes? No. But I do enjoy learning, so I've found it valuable.
 
If you don't like me, that may seem like a bonus. I don't know how people feel in that regard, or how people would like sharing a cockpit with me. I don't know how any of you would be to share a cockpit with, either.

I'm not sure what disliking somebody has to do with your relative qualifications for a job. I know plenty of really competent pilots that I can't stand. And I know some really fun guys to fly with, who I'd never put a family member on their plane.

Unless you were referencing that more about the fact that because you don't have the right qualification (rightly or wrongly) that you won't be getting the job(s).
 
I recognize and accept this fact. While it might be nice to work for a major airline, the reality is that I almost certainly never will. That's ok. I just want people to realize that these hiring practices result in a circular dependency on education that strips incredible—and increasing—amounts of money from people. I want people to realize that these hiring practices benefit those from middle-class or upper-middle-class backgrounds—people who grow up with the certain knowledge that they're going to college after high school. I also want people to be aware that the abilities to learn, to think logically, to succeed, to achieve goals and to achieve an educated state aren't directly related to paying money to an institute of higher learning.

I want people to realize that these hiring practices directly exclude people like me.

If you don't like me, that may seem like a bonus. I don't know how people feel in that regard, or how people would like sharing a cockpit with me. I don't know how any of you would be to share a cockpit with, either.

That is the way of things.

-Fox
I don't know if I like you or don't like you. My dog looks like a fluffy fox, so maybe I do. :)

We all know that these hiring practices exclude people like you, though. There's nothing emotional or personal about it coming from me- that's just how it is due to long standing hiring practices that try to create quality long term employees (many objective, some subjective). The selection people want high quality people with a long term commitment to the company that won't be trainwrecks (and I'm not talking about DL only- ALL the top tier carriers are like this) and these sorts of people tend to do what it takes to jump through the hoops to get hired in this competitive environment. Education, high attention to detail on their paperwork, and so on and so forth. It's out there and available to everyone what is required.

Until the pool of applicants dries up, that's how its going to roll.
 
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Change of topic - - - - This line of thought reminds me. Have you guys ever seen the EdX courses that you can take online? You don't get credit, but you can take a whole bunch of classes online for free from brand name universities.

https://www.edx.org/

This looks great... what an awesome resource, I think that you just gave me something to do on my commute in 6 months... as long as the 'flify' is working in back. Well, other than catch up on 20 years worth of TV Shows.
 
I'm not sure what disliking somebody has to do with your relative qualifications for a job.

Let me ask two simple questions:
A> What is a qualification?
B> On what technical basis (aside from total time, experience, and Jet/FMS time) would you justify that I, personally, should be excluded from a job at Delta? Or to put it another way, in what way am I unqualified to work there, whereas someone with a BS in IT / Telecom would be qualified?

What is the distinction between a credential and a qualification?

I know plenty of really competent pilots that I can't stand. And I know some really fun guys to fly with, who I'd never put a family member on their plane. Unless you were referencing that more about the fact that because you don't have the right qualification (rightly or wrongly) that you won't be getting the job(s).

The excerpt you chose was a sidebar to acknowledge the fact that people might read my statement and think "Good! I wouldn't want to work with him!"

-Fox
 
I don't know if I like you or don't like you. My dog looks like a fluffy fox, so maybe I do. :)

Samoyed, or...?

We all know that these hiring practices exclude people like you, though. There's nothing emotional or personal about it coming from me- that's just how it is due to long standing hiring practices that try to create quality long term employees (many objective, some subjective).

All of that is really very obvious, and well understood. Continue...

The selection people want people with a long term commitment to the company (and I'm not talking about DL only- ALL the top tier carriers are like this) and want to know that those people will jump through the hoops to get hired in this competitive environment.

That's understandable, but academic if that level of qualification is considered ubiquitous. With retail and fast food requiring and preferring degrees in this day and age, you're not meaningfully improving your pool of applicants. Consider if the major airlines required a master's degree and the regionals a bachelor's. Would you feel the same way? What if the major would accept no less than a PhD and the regional a master's?

Would people still stand up to justify that as a logical discriminator? What if the majors wanted multiple degrees? It's a competitive hiring environment, after all. What if they required a graduate degree for existing pilots to upgrade?

Would the lot of you be hoofing it right back to school, forking out your tens, hundreds of thousands of dollars like good little aspirants?

What if they only wanted people between 5'6" and 5'10" so they could save money on seats? What if they only wanted white people with blond or sandy-brown hair and blue eyes?

I could say "how much is too much", but that's ultimately irrelevant—the problem isn't that there's a point where it's too much, the problem is that they're looking for something that's effectively entirely unrelated to the job at hand, and that's a problem.

Now don't take this to mean I think they don't have the right to do that—they do—but they'll lose out on potential candidates like me, and they'll create millions of dollars in sales to colleges and universities for all those poor souls they send through the hoops they require.

I see this as a bad thing. But more than anything else, I really want to contest the notion that the requirement makes sense in any objective way. It isn't my intent to change it, but I am Don Quixote and this is my particular windmill.
Oh my Dulcinea...

Education, high attention to detail on their paperwork, and so on and so forth. It's out there and available to everyone what is required. Until the pool of applicants dries up, that's how its going to roll.

Just like companies that have PFT/PFJ/Training contracts roll the way they do.

Materially there's little difference as I see it—hell, in some ways I think PFJ is more honest. "A bachelor's degree in anything" as a requirement is neo-archaic, and needs to die.

I think I've really made pretty much all the points I can make. I doubt I'm going to change anyone's mind outright, though hopefully I can inject at least a little doubt, but ever am I a-tilt.

-Fox
 
Serendipitously, I was just listening to a freakanomics podcast in which they asked a bunch of big brains what "scientific" ideas needed to die. The former particle physicist turned wall st. analyst chose "the notion that the study of statistics can effectively replace intuition" (paraphrasing). Seems apposite, somehow.
 
Serendipitously, I was just listening to a freakanomics podcast in which they asked a bunch of big brains what "scientific" ideas needed to die. The former particle physicist turned wall st. analyst chose "the notion that the study of statistics can effectively replace intuition" (paraphrasing). Seems apposite, somehow.

Dunt dunt dunt *clicky noise* dunt dunt dunt *clicky noise* OooOoOOooooooooh. Whooooo ohhhhhhhh.

Nope, don't listen to "Freakanomics Radio" here at all. :)
 
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