Delta Disqualifiers

This thread was good and dead two weeks ago and has revived itself in a way that I would not have anticipated. What's that disease that I'm thinking of?
 
ppragman said:
But seriously, if the most effective retort you can come up with is essentially, "ummm, well you're not a major airline pilot, so clearly in a discussion about what degrees require the most critical thinking it is obvious that liberal arts > engineering," then you may not have gotten the return on your investment you think you did. ;-)
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Now that's a burn.

Hacker15e said:
I am certain that at a future NJC I will be buying you a libation and telling you that you were right!
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You? At NJC? I'll believe it when I see it. ;)
 
JetDoc said:
I'm 48 years old. My high school transcripts in no way, shape or form reflect on the type of man I am today... I agree with you totally, It's borderline insulting to ask a an accomplished military officer for H.S. transcrips..
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It's not so much that as seeing if you have the attention to detail to fill out eeeeeeeevery block in the application.
 
GypsyPilot said:
This post tells me a lot... It tells me that your opinion of engineers in based on some outdated 1950s concept of guys running around with sliderules and pocket protectors. Fortunately, this is the 21st century and that is not at all how things are done in the industry, and it is absolutely not how engineering students are taught.

Engineering today is not done in a solitary vacuum. One must have very strong communication skills to work within design groups, interfacing directly with customers, vendors, and in some cases marketing and sales. Critical thinking and communications are extremely important, as much as the technical skills are.
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I know plenty of engineers. My neighbor is a 28 year old mechanical engineer working on his MBA on the side. I'm not disputing they are smart MFers. What I am disputing is that an engineering degree is better suited to being a pilot than a liberal arts degree. It really depends on the individual more than the degree itself, obviously. But I do not think that liberal arts degrees are worthless, as some on here keep suggesting.
 
ppragman said:
Man, you really got me. How will I ever be able to live with myself at home in Hawaii where I am presently sitting on call in my living room watching the Magic School Bus with my son. One day, I hope I can really make it like you have. /s

But seriously, if the most effective retort you can come up with is essentially, "ummm, well you're not a major airline pilot, so clearly in a discussion about what degrees require the most critical thinking it is obvious that liberal arts > engineering," then you may not have gotten the return on your investment you think you did. ;-)
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I believe I successfully have entered your craw. :) It was more an opportunistic shot to be funny than anything personal.

There's room for both engineering and others at the carriers, and I think a bit of diversity there is needed. HR recognizes that. That's why DL doesnt say "engineering preferred becauze its da BEST" or vice versa.

I'm really glad I had a bit of both in my edumacation.
 
Acrofox said:
I don't think one's suitability for flying is based in any way on college.

-Fox
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I wouldn't go that far. If you were talking only about flying skills (stick and rudder) I would agree, but flying is about 5% stick and rudder, and 95% other stuff. Being educated helps with the other stuff. Now you can go to college and not become educated, in which case college doesn't help you at all. Or you can not go to college and educate yourself, but that's not easy either. It's also harder to show on a resume, which is part of the game, for better or worse.

Again, my point was that being educated is what matters. Engineers can go to school and not be educated. Philosophy majors can go to school and not be educated.
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
I wouldn't go that far.
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I just did...

If you were talking only about flying skills (stick and rudder) I would agree, but flying is about 5% stick and rudder, and 95% other stuff. Being educated helps with the other stuff. Now you can go to college and not become educated, in which case college doesn't help you at all. Or you can not go to college and educate yourself, but that's not easy either. It's also harder to show on a resume, which is part of the game, for better or worse.
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... and so did you. Once you necessarily imply that there is a divorce between college and education, you cede that college itself isn't a requisite for the 95% "other stuff" that requires education.

As you say yourself, a college degree doesn't prove an individual's education any more than the lack of one disproves it. There might be some degree of correlation, but dare I point out "post hoc ergo propter hoc"? Do you feel that the plurality of individuals who succeed in achieving a state of education would have remained uneducated had they not spent a ridiculous amount of money and years of their life on a degree?

Again, my point was that being educated is what matters. Engineers can go to school and not be educated. Philosophy majors can go to school and not be educated.
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I agree on all three counts, although my personal preference—as a "retired" 'Engineer' / 'Architect'—is to find people who are smart enough again to recognize that college is a racket, and stubborn enough to refuse to "play the game" just to avoid the work that being "un-credentialed" will bring.

Perhaps that's arrogant, but even from a systems point of view I'd rather have a stubbornly correct opponent than a silently dissenting one... and I think college imbues its subjects with the value of conformity far more effectively than people realize. This is one reason I feel that an honest, deep, introspective study of philosophy and logic would benefit any single human being, and why I feel that many of the engineers I've worked with have proven to be the worst at discussing fuzzier concepts; many are trained to think in absolutes, a shortcut that subverts all of the value of the beautiful device that is the human mind and imperils any project they find themselves working on.

I support higher education, as long as it challenges a person's preconceptions, allows them to achieve their own system of foundational thinking and supports them in it, and further, develops within them a willingness to examine alternative points of view.

However, I feel that it often serves instead as an indoctrination process to support the higher education racket, and this is something I will remain vehemently in opposition to as long as I shall live.

There, done.

*Pant*

-Fox, mostly just pissed that even Horizon is now apparently requiring an AS degree.
 
I realize what you're saying, and agree for the most part. I would never say the college is necessary. I would say that formal training makes education easier, and it would be really really hard to study most subjects by yourself to any great depth. Therefore I support college because most people don't have the discipline or aptitude to become educated by themselves.

Change of topic - - - - This line of thought reminds me. Have you guys ever seen the EdX courses that you can take online? You don't get credit, but you can take a whole bunch of classes online for free from brand name universities.

https://www.edx.org/
 
JetDoc said:
I'm 48 years old. My high school transcripts in no way, shape or form reflect on the type of man I am today... I agree with you totally, It's borderline insulting to ask a an accomplished military officer for H.S. transcrips..
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It's a screening technique to answer the question of "Did you read the question? Did you care enough about applying here that you'll provide the information?" "Are you detail oriented?" "Are you a that looks about right type?"

It's an HR's very own version of the Van Halen concert "rider" about no brown M&Ms. If there were brown M&Ms in the candy dish, it means they probably didn't read the contract carefully and to be on the lookout for other discrepancies. If you didn't fill out the application, completely and carefully, there may be other discrepancies that may cause either the employer or the employee some heartache at a later date.

I'm not speaking for Delta or any other airline, but I do see the efficacy of certain questions that make many of us go "Aroo?!"


For my philosophy and engineering majors:

Screen Shot 2015-03-18 at 1556.36.png
 
Acrofox said:
I just did...



... and so did you. Once you necessarily imply that there is a divorce between college and education, you cede that college itself isn't a requisite for the 95% "other stuff" that requires education.

As you say yourself, a college degree doesn't prove an individual's education any more than the lack of one disproves it. There might be some degree of correlation, but dare I point out "post hoc ergo propter hoc"? Do you feel that the plurality of individuals who succeed in achieving a state of education would have remained uneducated had they not spent a ridiculous amount of money and years of their life on a degree?



I agree on all three counts, although my personal preference—as a "retired" 'Engineer' / 'Architect'—is to find people who are smart enough again to recognize that college is a racket, and stubborn enough to refuse to "play the game" just to avoid the work that being "un-credentialed" will bring.

Perhaps that's arrogant, but even from a systems point of view I'd rather have a stubbornly correct opponent than a silently dissenting one... and I think college imbues its subjects with the value of conformity far more effectively than people realize. This is one reason I feel that an honest, deep, introspective study of philosophy and logic would benefit any single human being, and why I feel that many of the engineers I've worked with have proven to be the worst at discussing fuzzier concepts; many are trained to think in absolutes, a shortcut that subverts all of the value of the beautiful device that is the human mind and imperils any project they find themselves working on.

I support higher education, as long as it challenges a person's preconceptions, allows them to achieve their own system of foundational thinking and supports them in it, and further, develops within them a willingness to examine alternative points of view.

However, I feel that it often serves instead as an indoctrination process to support the higher education racket, and this is something I will remain vehemently in opposition to as long as I shall live.

There, done.

*Pant*

-Fox, mostly just pissed that even Horizon is now apparently requiring an AS degree.
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Damn hippies are everywhere.
 
Me, I'd be meaner.

I'd ask a ridiculous question only for foddfer for my company to scour social media to see if (or how) you bitched about.

Eloquence would be positive points.
Bitterness, disbelief and "this is stupid!" would be negative points.

You don't want me in any position of authority over you because I'm mean and creative. :)
 
Derg said:
It's a screening technique to answer the question of "Did you read the question? Did you care enough about applying here that you'll provide the information?" "Are you detail oriented?" "Are you a that looks about right type?"
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They can do that without requiring information that no one keeps. They're sending people on a crazy wild goose chase for something completely irrelevant.
 
Acrofox said:
... mostly just pissed that even Horizon is now apparently requiring an AS degree.
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Their job listing on alaskaair.com states otherwise. A two-year or four-year degree is preferred, but only a high school diploma is required.


I'd actually bet that not having a degree would get you an applicant looked at. Reason? Horizon would have that person for a long time. No real threat of them leaving for a major...
 
ATN_Pilot said:
They can do that without requiring information that no one keeps. They're sending people on a crazy wild goose chase for something completely irrelevant.
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I think it took me a quick five minute telephone call to my high school front office to get transcripts.

I knew my fellow coworkers at Skyway weren't going to do it.

I'm not saying it's not a pain in the ass, or a wild goose chase, but it's part of your complete picture that, for some reason, some consultant suggested be part of the application package. No point in over-thinking it. I've literally spent more time talking about it than I took to even call them farm people back home in the valley and have them mailed to me in Oak Creek, Wisconsin.
 
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