Deadheading...would you take the jumpseat?

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

If that's the case, why do airlines have to solicite volunteers so often? If the projections were accurate, they should have it down by now. As it is, nearly every flight I operated last summer was in "an oversold situation." If the projections were on, then why were gate agents handing out vouchers at all? I can see soliciting them because it's oversold just in case, but if the software is so spot on as you claim, they shouldn't have to actually issue the vouchers.

Denied boardings are virtually non-existent. Your perception may be different, but the hard data is available, and it doesn't support your perception. Denied boarding numbers are always in the 1 to 2 passengers per 100,000 range. The DOT publishes the numbers, if you're interested.

If anything, I'd say it became MORE of a customer service oriented business after 1978 when airlines could directly compete with each other without government approval. Put two airlines that charge similar prices operating the same route, one that treats it's customers like dirt and the other treats them well. Watch which one survives. Then tell me it's not a customer service business. If it has nothing to do with customer service, what it is? It's not a utility. It's not bus service. Maybe I'm just not numb to being treated like I don't matter like so many people in the world are today.

It's a commodity. Or at least that's how the vast majority of passengers view it nowadays. An airline ticket is nothing more than a ride from Point A to Point B. Whichever carrier offers it cheaper, regardless of service level provided, gets the sale. Prior to 1978, that wasn't the case. Airlines didn't have to compete on price, so they competed on service. Even the CAB took the level of service into account when deciding who should receive a route award.

 

[L-16B]

Anyone read the article in USA today about this?

 

[drunkenbeagle]

Prior to 1978, that wasn't the case. Airlines didn't have to compete on price, so they competed on service. Even the CAB took the level of service into account when deciding who should receive a route award.

Prior to 1978, they did not compete period. Weren't many overlapping routes then.

 

[jtrain609]

Anyone read the article in USA today about this?

Taking the jumpseat on DH's?

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Prior to 1978, they did not compete period. Weren't many overlapping routes then.

Because there were very few non-stop routes, there was plenty of competition. Someone wanting to go from Cleveland to Miami had multiple ways to get there. The stop(s) in between would just be different depending on which airline they took. Not to mention that the airlines were competing for route awards from the CAB, which meant that they had to keep prices reasonable, but they didn't have to keep them bargain-basement, because the CAB considered things other than just price, such as frequency and service level.

 

[L-16B]

Taking the jumpseat on DH's?

No about the rate of denied boarding. ATN pilots stats were right on.

 

[Pilotforhire587]

No one supports FAs and the AFA more than me, but if it comes down to a pilot or an FA getting a seat, the pilot is getting the nod. Professional courtesy. That's what the jumpseat is, after all.

Yep... If there are no jumpseating pilots I would take the JS to get a passenger on, but there is no way in hell I would take the jump seat if it prevented a fellow pilot from getting to or from work. Thats a good way to get you blacklisted. Always help out your fellow pilots.

 

[Seggy]

Seggy, I don't think these expensive metrics are working anymore.

The airlines do a fine job working around the metrics. A few years ago the matrix that wasn't doing so well for the airlines was DOT On Time percentages. So what do the airlines do? They increase block times and now the airlines are doing a lot better with that matrix. If it REALLY becomes a problem with involuntary denied boarding, then the airlines will tweak their revenue management systems, but until that time, we aren't going to see that happen.

As for the Valentine's Day Massacre at jetBlue, airlines make mistakes. Ours was growing too quickly, and it bit us. If you think that legislation came about solely because jetBlue failed on the tarmac, well, I've got some bridges to sell you. It's because customers in general are fed up with poor customer service at airlines.

Then why did it happen again in BDL a few years later?

 

[Cruise]

At SWA, it's not even a "volunteer" situation. Their CBA actually allows the company to force you to ride in the jumpseat for a DH if they need to get revenue on.

Just another example of their so-called "industry leading" contract.

You've got to be kidding me!?! That is no bueno on a number of different levels. What the deuce!!!

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

You've got to be kidding me!?! That is no bueno on a number of different levels. What the deuce!!!

When I said the same to some SWAPA leaders, they lectured me on how important it was to support the company in generating the maximum revenue. It didn't seem to bother them that the revenue was being generated to their detriment.

 

[derg]

On my commute, there was a guy who who bragging in the jetway about how he gave up his seat to get a non-rev on, but then I heard him a fe cubicles over bitching about how he was going to take first break because he had to ride the Jumpseat from Phoenix.

Hrmmmmm...

Then I thought, it's not the last flight out of Saigon (MikeD) and he arrived at work unrested for an 7.5-ish hour flight compared to someone traveling on (I checked!) an S-4 at the crack of dawn with vastly more options.

 

[derg]

When I said the same to some SWAPA leaders, they lectured me on how important it was to support the company in generating the maximum revenue. It didn't seem to bother them that the revenue was being generated to their detriment.

The airline of yesteryear still exists?

I hear an occasional story or two about flying the L1011 and how the skipper got stuck in the lower galley when the elevator broke down and he ended up eatingfive or six trays of food.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

On my commute, there was a guy who who bragging in the jetway about how he gave up his seat to get a non-rev on, but then I heard him a fe cubicles over bitching about how he was going to take first break because he had to ride the Jumpseat from Phoenix.

Hrmmmmm...

Then I thought, it's not the last flight out of Saigon (MikeD) and he arrived at work unrested for an 7.5-ish hour flight compared to someone traveling on (I checked!) an S-4 at the crack of dawn with vastly more options.

I've no butthurt at all about throwing my pass priority around (or having it thrown around against me...it's just the circle of life, Simba). Common courtesy dictates that if you're going to work from LAX to SLC, on one of "our" airplanes, and I'm going on that same airplane to go skiing, I might just give way to you if there's only the jump available. But if we're both getting on that RJ to go to work, sorry hoss, go walk over to the A319 next door. (Can I Doug Taylor Doug Taylor?) I expect (and have received) reciprocal treatment.

 

[kellwolf]

Denied boardings are virtually non-existent. Your perception may be different, but the hard data is available, and it doesn't support your perception. Denied boarding numbers are always in the 1 to 2 passengers per 100,000 range. The DOT publishes the numbers, if you're interested.

I did read the hard data. It's 1 or 2 per TEN thousand, not 100,000. Yours had too many zeros. As I said, the reports have it increasing considerably in the past couple of years. I know at my airline and my previous airline, if we were booked to a number, that number most often showed up. SWA in 2004, we could be booked to 164 and still have empty seats on a plane that holds 137. The industry is still running with numbers that don't hold up anymore and aren't adjusting.

Prior to 1978, that wasn't the case. Airlines didn't have to compete on price, so they competed on service. Even the CAB took the level of service into account when deciding who should receive a route award.

For S&G, I checked several routes out of JFK that jetBlue and Delta both fly on A320s. The fares differed by $.10. Still think they're not competing on service when the price is the same?

 

[kellwolf]

Then why did it happen again in BDL a few years later?

Same reason it happened to XJT in Rochester, MN. Look, we can play the "you're airline F'ed up" all day long. I don't think you can point to an airline that's been around for a significant amount of time that hasn't had some sort of issue. Fact remains that Virgin America and jetBlue remain up there in customer service surveys whereas the legacy carriers flounder.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I did read the hard data. It's 1 or 2 per TEN thousand, not 100,000.

Um, no. Not sure where you're getting your numbers, but it isn't from the DOT. I was just a bit off, but the real DOT number is around 4 per 100,000 for the major carriers. I think you're including voluntary denied boardings in order to get at your numbers, and those clearly aren't the issue here.

As I said, the reports have it increasing considerably in the past couple of years.

Actually, the opposite is true. Denied boardings peaked in the '98-'01 timeframe, and we're down about 40% from that peak now.

The industry is still running with numbers that don't hold up anymore and aren't adjusting.

Actually, the yield management software adjusts continually, updating itself with every day's data that goes by. Far from old data.

For S&G, I checked several routes out of JFK that jetBlue and Delta both fly on A320s. The fares differed by $.10. Still think they're not competing on service when the price is the same?

Of course they aren't competing based upon service. The service is practically indistinguishable on domestic routes, unless you're looking for a business class seat. Delta matches the bargain basement fare that JetBlue offers, and competes based upon the frequent flying program. By being a member of the program and having the SkyMiles credit card, frequent flyers get a discount on Delta by not having to pay the checked bag fees. Delta matches the fare, but cuts the ancillary fee, and therefore undercuts JetBlue. In exchange for the price cut, Delta gets a loyal customer because of the SkyMiles program that JetBlue is incapable of matching with their route network.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

I think that the vacation JS is part if the problem. If commuting not a question but think you should have to play the nonrev game for vacation like all the other employees.

How do you feel when you can't get the JS home only because X is starting a vacation?

Again, that's the way it works. If employee number 13 is listed I know I'm screwed at 42K...


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[dasleben]

I think that the vacation JS is part if the problem. If commuting not a question but think you should have to play the nonrev game for vacation like all the other employees.

How do you feel when you can't get the JS home only because X is starting a vacation?

The only way I can go anywhere is by means of jumpseat or outright ticket purchase; I haven't worked for a company with any other type of pass privileges in quite a while.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

Of course they aren't competing based upon service. The service is practically indistinguishable on domestic routes, unless you're looking for a business class seat. Delta matches the bargain basement fare that JetBlue offers, and competes based upon the frequent flying program. By being a member of the program and having the SkyMiles credit card, frequent flyers get a discount on Delta by not having to pay the checked bag fees. Delta matches the fare, but cuts the ancillary fee, and therefore undercuts JetBlue. In exchange for the price cut, Delta gets a loyal customer because of the SkyMiles program that JetBlue is incapable of matching with their route network.

I prefer taking JetBlue to JFK and BOS actually, and I'm a Platinum Medallion SkyMiles member.

JetBlue has a free checked bag for everyone. So I would say it is Delta charging more here, providing worse service.

JetBlue has free TV in every seat, Delta does not.

BTW, the SkyMiles credit card you have isn't Delta giving you anything- Amex is paying Delta many millions of dollars to market that card, and paying Delta for the miles you are accruing. They make money on the deal, trust me. Amex has a jetBlue card too.

The pricing tends to be identical on routes they compete on. I've never seen JetBlue to be significantly cheaper. For TPA->BOS, frequent route for me, JetBlue tends to be pricier than Delta (they operate a non-stop, Delta doesn't)

SkyMiles is a better loyalty program, but that is mostly because of the size of their route network (better odds that they actually fly someplace I might want to go on a award ticket). But actually getting a seat is frequently not possible - frequently there are month long stretches with not a single award seat on many routes.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

SkyMiles is a better loyalty program, but that is mostly because of the size of their route network (better odds that they actually fly someplace I might want to go on a award ticket). But actually getting a seat is frequently not possible - frequently there are month long stretches with not a single award seat on many routes.

So, I suppose that the oft-repeated advice given to people trying to go places on S-4/buddy/etc. passes should be repeated to people trying to redeem too. "If you absolutely have to be there, buy a ticket."