DCA near miss Delta/Bluestreak vs AF T-38

[nabbyfan]

How many incidents will we allow between military traffic and civilian traffic at this specific airport before anything actually changes?

There have been thousands of safety reports filed on the issues at DCA. I’m sure all of you guys on here that fly into there and familiar with many of them.

You’d think with it being the primary airport for most congressman that there would be more of a push to fix some of these long systemic issues.

 

[NovemberEcho]

When we have flyovers at MetLife we stop all arrival or departure traffic while it happens to the point I’ve seen international diverts so they can do a stupid flyover.

 

[MikeD]

How many incidents will we allow between military traffic and civilian traffic at this specific airport before anything actually changes?

There have been thousands of safety reports filed on the issues at DCA. I’m sure all of you guys on here that fly into there and familiar with many of them.

You’d think with it being the primary airport for most congressman that there would be more of a push to fix some of these long systemic issues.

Unfortunately, geography plays a large part in this. By nature of where it is, there’s a lot of mil and govt air traffic rolling around there. The DCA midair was one of those that the signs were there regarding a flight route that would intersect with traffic when a particular runway was in use at DCA (33), but this particular incident is more a one-off vis a vis vectoring around a formations that is awaiting a push time to make a TOT over Arlington. If there have been trends of near-misses during these activities, I haven’t seen them or they haven’t been reported or advertised.

With the four-ship formation coming from the southeast where they departed from Langley AFB, and being vectored for their timing and with those same vectors taking them to the common east-west or west-east flight path for a flyover of an internment at the cemetery, TRACON should’ve ceased IFR releases out of DCA a little earlier than they did until the formation passed DCA, if only to account for last minute maneuvering/vectoring for time adjustments, so that no airline traffic would be a conflict. Formation flyovers need this flexibility to meet the proper TOT, and while it can be a bit of a har one, it’s a necessary one. And thus, a short delay for launching departures would’ve been prudent, so Delta never would’ve been in conflict that they weren’t made aware of until a TA/RA.

Geographically speaking, and with how much goes on there air traffic wise with govt and military air traffic, the question has to be asked, is the military traffic in the way, or is DCA airport itself, in the way, there in that congested area?

 

[MikeD]

When we have flyovers at MetLife we stop all arrival or departure traffic while it happens to the point I’ve seen international diverts so they can do a stupid flyover.

Sports venue flyovers are a waste of time, in my opinion. I can much more understand ceremonial or cemetery internment flyovers.

 

[N826AW]

How many incidents will we allow between military traffic and civilian traffic at this specific airport before anything actually changes?

There have been thousands of safety reports filed on the issues at DCA. I’m sure all of you guys on here that fly into there and familiar with many of them.

You’d think with it being the primary airport for most congressman that there would be more of a push to fix some of these long systemic issues.

I'm more worried about the combination of a large bump in corporate traffic unfamiliar with DCA ops, intersecting runways, landing clearances at the 2 mile mark, etc. And it all being orchestrated by a single overworked, stressed controller who is mourning after watching 70+ people either die or get pulled from the Potomac.

 

[jhugz]

That's it. It's that simple. Why he picked this thread to make that statement is confusing and comes across as a rant.

It's absolutely a rant, and a very observant/relevant one.

We almost smoked a Delta bird for a stupid flyover in some of the most congested airspace in the world. This comes literally months after one of the worst aviation accidents in a decade due to improper airspace management.

Yet we still have absolute clowns spreading false narratives on the accident to fit their own agendas.

So yes, obtuse seems correct if you're still not grasping.

 

[statusseeker1]

Please present evidence that the FAA and NTSB are failing to investigate the root causes of accidents because they assume that race or gender played a role.

You’re putting words in my mouth. I never said that. You’ve been struggling to understand Dergs point this entire thread and I was trying to lay it out on the table because it seems to (still) be going right over your head. Nevermind.

 

[Lawman]

We almost smoked a Delta bird for a stupid flyover.

Ok check yourself on this one before you let the 0s in your paycheck somehow drive your feeling of significance in the universe.

1. There is nothing stupid about a flyover at Arlington. It’s not a football game or a nascar race that drags airplanes up there for a time over target flight.

2. We didn’t “almost smoke” anything. A traffic intrusion as to not be obvious to the approach controller occurred and the crew reacted to a TCAS alarm. Don’t over-sensationalize this just because it’s the current media buzz.


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[jhugz]

Ok check yourself on this one before you let the 0s in your paycheck somehow drive your feeling of significance in the universe.

1. There is nothing stupid about a flyover at Arlington. It’s not a football game or a nascar race that drags airplanes up there for a time over target flight.

2. We didn’t “almost smoke” anything. A traffic intrusion as to not be obvious to the approach controller occurred and the crew reacted to a TCAS alarm. Don’t over-sensationalize this just because it’s the current media buzz.


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You're right, a TCAS event is a totally normal event. Bouncing a pax off the ceiling to avoid a fast mover putting on a show for Billy Bob is totally an acceptable level of risk for 'Murica.

Did people just walk into this thread and lose 20 points of IQ or is this just a baseline thing?

 

[Lawman]

You're right, a TCAS event is a totally normal event. Bouncing a pax off the ceiling to avoid a fast mover putting on a show for Billy Bob is totally an acceptable level of risk for 'Murica.

Did people just walk into this thread and lose 20 points of IQ or is this just a baseline thing?

Hey <redacted> a reminder, the national airspace is not the sole domain of 121 ops while the rest of us just act as tourists.

If you want to insinuate stuff and say something as insulting as a “stupid flyover” maybe you should tell the bereaved down there that it’s more important we sequence the maximum number of Expedia ticket buyers in and out of the airspace rather than do something like issue a ground stop to provide for something any mil pilot would gladly make themselves a part of.

Your sentiment wasn’t that the air traffic sequencing broke down, it was that the air traffic didn’t need to be there because of your opinion on the matter. Stand by that stupid opinion if you want to make it publicly. Maybe we can move Arlington since this is such a problem for you.


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[jhugz]

Hey a reminder, the national airspace is not the sole domain of 121 ops while the rest of us just act as tourists.

If you want to insinuate stuff and say something as insulting as a “stupid flyover” maybe you should tell the bereaved down there that it’s more important we sequence the maximum number of Expedia ticket buyers in and out of the airspace rather than do something like issue a ground stop to provide for something any mil pilot would gladly make themselves a part of.

Your sentiment wasn’t that the air traffic sequencing broke down, it was that the air traffic didn’t need to be there because of your opinion on the matter. Stand by that stupid opinion if you want to make it publicly. Maybe we can move Arlington since this is such a problem for you.


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Easy tex, somehow you interpret me not killing an airplane full of people to disrespecting the troops.

If a flyover is a necessity, then throw up a TFR or a ground stop. Of course the airspace should be shared, but if it can't be done safely, as it has proven it can't be there, then something has to give.

 

[roundout]

When we have flyovers at MetLife we stop all arrival or departure traffic while it happens to the point I’ve seen international diverts so they can do a stupid flyover.

 

[Lawman]

Easy tex, somehow you interpret me not killing an airplane full of people to disrespecting the troops.

If a flyover is a necessity, then throw up a TFR or a ground stop. Of course the airspace should be shared, but if it can't be done safely, as it has proven it can't be there, then something has to give.

No I didn’t misinterpret anything, you <redacted> called it a “stupid flyover.” And when checked on that statement you decided to bow up about it. Cool, now you get what’s coming. Again, this wasn’t a national anthem being played for a football game, it’s Arlington. It’s down there for a very specific reason.

Don’t try to suddenly play victim because your sentiment was very clear in your original remarks, how dare such an activity even take place in an airspace designated for the purposes you somehow are the arbiter of.

Now you’re on “if it can’t be done safely.” Tell me how many flyovers through RAPCONs/TRACONs have you coordinated for? Why don’t you let us know what those procedures look like and how we somehow managed to do them all these years without “nearly smoking” anybody, and this one time (and not given the heightened immediate attention) this one is somehow differently conducted. Or maybe wait for an actual investigation to decide who was at fault or failed here instead of sensationalizing it with a hypothetical might have happened.


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[jhugz]

No I didn’t misinterpret anything, you called it a “stupid flyover.” And when checked on that statement you decided to bow up about it. Cool, now you get what’s coming.

Don’t try to suddenly play victim because your sentiment was very clear in your original remarks, how dare such an activity even take place in an airspace designated for the purposes you somehow are the arbiter of.

Now you’re on “if it can’t be done safely.” Tell me how many flyovers through RAPCONs/TRACONs have you coordinated for? Why don’t you let us know what those procedures look like and how we somehow managed to do them all these years without “nearly smoking” anybody, and this one time (and not given the heightened immediate attention) this one is somehow differently conducted.


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Ok, here's my honest opinion. Any fly over that endangers other people is an unacceptable risk. So yes, "stupid flyovers" stands. I don't care who the flyover is for, if it's endangering others, it's stupid. You somehow interpret this to me disrespecting the dead, that's fine. I'm tired of tip toeing around you.

Whoever this flyover was for, I'm sure the family would agree with me, that having an airplane over the top of the ceremony wouldn't be worth a plane full of people dying.

 

[Lawman]

And how did the flyover existing endanger anyone? Show us where the flyover departed from clear instructions or did something in a non briefed and approved manner.

Like I said you’ve got a lot of opinion for somebody who neither has experience in the arrangement of such activities in general or the specifics of this incident. Nobody was bounced off a ceiling of an aircraft until you insinuated such. Do you have actual evidence that such a violent procedural deviation was taking place at the time of the flyover? Or is this just my hyper inflation of the event by you along with planes full of dead people

Hey here’s a reversal on this: Why was an aircraft cleared for and allowed to conduct takeoff with a 4 ship conducting a flyover (which are all pre-coordinated)? Seems like the flyover was being conducted without issue to the rest of the busy airspace, and an aircraft was directed to take off into it. Obviously the answer is to get mad at flyovers right?


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[jhugz]

And how did the flyover existing endanger anyone? Show us where the flyover departed from clear instructions or did something in a non briefed and approved manner.

Like I said you’ve got a lot of opinion for somebody who neither has experience in the arrangement of such activities in general or the specifics of this incident. Nobody was bounced off a ceiling of an aircraft until you insinuated such. Do you have actual evidence that such a violent procedural deviation was taking place at the time of the flyover? Or is this just my hyper inflation of the event by you along with planes full of dead people

Hey here’s a reversal on this: Why was an aircraft cleared for and allowed to conduct takeoff with a 4 ship conducting a flyover (which are all pre-coordinated)? Seems like the flyover was being conducted without issue to the rest of the busy airspace, and an aircraft was directed to take off into it. Obviously the answer is to get mad at flyovers right?


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I'm done arguing with the wall, if you can't figure out how non-arriving/departing traffic conflicting with one of the most congested airport in the world is a bad thing, idk what to tell you.

You're just trying to pick a fight to pick a fight and I'm done feeding the troll.

 

[Lawman]

I'm done arguing with the wall, if you can't figure out how non-arriving/departing traffic conflicting with one of the most congested airport in the world is a bad thing, idk what to tell you.

You're just trying to pick a fight to pick a fight and I'm done feeding the troll.

If you want to slap the easy button and say TFR let’s do it. Call your bosses and demand it. That will simplify the issue entirely.

The airspace is busy, but it isn’t yours. And the fact of the matter is this is one of the only times a flyover matters.


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[arkavgal]

You're right, a TCAS event is a totally normal event. Bouncing a pax off the ceiling to avoid a fast mover putting on a show for Billy Bob is totally an acceptable level of risk for 'Murica.

Did people just walk into this thread and lose 20 points of IQ or is this just a baseline thing?

Even I think you're overreacting. A TCAS event doesn't necessarily mean that they almost collided. Without more information, "almost a smoking hole" is a reach. That's not to make light of the event.

 

[Bob Ridpath]

Even I think you're overreacting. A TCAS event doesn't necessarily mean that they almost collided. Without more information, "almost a smoking hole" is a reach. That's not to make light of the event.

Even I think you're overreacting. A TCAS event doesn't necessarily mean that they almost collided. Without more information, "almost a smoking hole" is a reach. That's not to make light of the event.

To the abyss with you ...

 

[arkavgal]

It's absolutely a rant, and a very observant/relevant one.

We almost smoked a Delta bird for a stupid flyover in some of the most congested airspace in the world. This comes literally months after one of the worst aviation accidents in a decade due to improper airspace management.

Yet we still have absolute clowns spreading false narratives on the accident to fit their own agendas.

So yes, obtuse seems correct if you're still not grasping.

Again, I grasp it perfectly. Just thought it was out of context about this incident. Let's move on.