Dash 8/Q400 Stall Recovery stats...

Nobody mentioned this -

He never touched the power levers after calling gear down. Why? Furthermore, he never touched the power levers when calling flaps 15. The airplane entered the stall condition before the flaps ever reached 10, unless they have mega fast extension motors. Not sure what the hell he was looking at, but it certainly wasn't his airspeed and he certainly didn't think power levers were important. Maybe because it was on autopilot he thought he had auto throttles.

Another interesting tidbit. The aircraft has NOT intercepted the glideslope YET. So here we have a Captain calling for GEAR = DRAG and FLAPS = DRAG and never introduces POWER to compensate.

What large aircraft doesn't need to add power when gear and more flaps are selected to maintain airspeed, even if you're on a 3 degree glidepath? Did he forget that more drag = less airspeed? When he finally realizes "Oh snap, I need power" he adds power and never lowers the nose. You are all getting hung up on his RECOVERY technique. Thats minor potatoes. What makes you think a guy who doesn't check his airspeed for a few minutes while calling for configuration changes is going to react properly to the stall that caught him off guard?

But its not all his fault. What the hell was the FO doing? Did the FO not notice the rapidly decreasing airspeed and say "airspeed" to the Captain? Was her job as the non-flying pilot looking out the window really that much a distraction to her JOB, to monitor and assist the Captain?

I'm sorry for sounding harsh, but these mistakes are just plain stupid. They are fundamentals of flying. I don't care how tired you are, fundamentals of flying!!!! The NTSB will most definitely conclude pilot error, as they should. This is elementary stuff here folks. Airspeed and Altitude. The two most important things to ever be concerned about. Guess a couple of flight instructors forgot to reiterate that fact. Its ashame so many people had to die over something so elementary to our job.
 
Airdale said:
Nobody mentioned this -

He never touched the power levers after calling gear down. Why? Furthermore, he never touched the power levers when calling flaps 15. The airplane entered the stall condition before the flaps ever reached 10, unless they have mega fast extension motors. Not sure what the hell he was looking at, but it certainly wasn't his airspeed and he certainly didn't think power levers were important. Maybe because it was on autopilot he thought he had auto throttles.

Another interesting tidbit. The aircraft has NOT intercepted the glideslope YET. So here we have a Captain calling for GEAR = DRAG and FLAPS = DRAG and never introduces POWER to compensate.

What large aircraft doesn't need to add power when gear and more flaps are selected to maintain airspeed, even if you're on a 3 degree glidepath? Did he forget that more drag = less airspeed? When he finally realizes "Oh snap, I need power" he adds power and never lowers the nose. You are all getting hung up on his RECOVERY technique. Thats minor potatoes. What makes you think a guy who doesn't check his airspeed for a few minutes while calling for configuration changes is going to react properly to the stall that caught him off guard?

But its not all his fault. What the hell was the FO doing? Did the FO not notice the rapidly decreasing airspeed and say "airspeed" to the Captain? Was her job as the non-flying pilot looking out the window really that much a distraction to her JOB, to monitor and assist the Captain?

I'm sorry for sounding harsh, but these mistakes are just plain stupid. They are fundamentals of flying. I don't care how tired you are, fundamentals of flying!!!! The NTSB will most definitely conclude pilot error, as they should. This is elementary stuff here folks. Airspeed and Altitude. The two most important things to ever be concerned about. Guess a couple of flight instructors forgot to reiterate that fact. Its ashame so many people had to die over something so elementary to our job.
Click to expand...


If you call for gear and flaps at GS intercept, in the Q there is no need to add power, going downhill is often enough. Normally, 180kts is like 30-35%, when the props come up that drops you to 20-25%... flaps 15 normally needs 13-15% for ref+10....
This is at a 180 kt intercept though, and works nice speed bleed to your ref speeds.... never tried it from a speed at which i can drop all my flaps at once.

those numbers change with weight fwiw... and i may be way off, haven't flown in a while, but if you do it right, you can fly damn near the whole approach without touching the PL's
 
From what I remember about the Q400 and flying a typical ILS...say for Seattle, about 5 miles from "FAF" (yes, I know for an ILS it's the glideslope intercept at the presecribed atltitude, but just going by distance on the FMS), I'd be at 15-20% trq and call for Flaps 5. 3 Miles go with Gear down and landing checklist. 1 Mile go with Flaps 15. Roughly 1500ft AFE, call for Flaps 35 and below the line, start slowing to Vref ICE (Vref +15). Maintain Vref ICE till 1000 Ft and slow to be at Vref by 500ft.

The change from Flaps 15 to Flaps 35 in the Q400, required a somewhat large power change in order to not fight the aircraft from pitching up. Typically, I'd be at 15-18% trq coming down the GS, and then going down to almost 5% trq in order to make hand flying the aircraft easier.

Once you're getting close to Vref or Vref ICE, whichever you're flying the approach at, holding 20-28% trq (depending on weight) will hold your REF speed.
 
SurferLucas said:
From what I remember about the Q400 and flying a typical ILS...say for Seattle, about 5 miles from "FAF" (yes, I know for an ILS it's the glideslope intercept at the presecribed atltitude, but just going by distance on the FMS), I'd be at 15-20% trq and call for Flaps 5. 3 Miles go with Gear down and landing checklist. 1 Mile go with Flaps 15. Roughly 1500ft AFE, call for Flaps 35 and below the line, start slowing to Vref ICE (Vref +15). Maintain Vref ICE till 1000 Ft and slow to be at Vref by 500ft.

The change from Flaps 15 to Flaps 35 in the Q400, required a somewhat large power change in order to not fight the aircraft from pitching up. Typically, I'd be at 15-18% trq coming down the GS, and then going down to almost 5% trq in order to make hand flying the aircraft easier.

Once you're getting close to Vref or Vref ICE, whichever you're flying the approach at, holding 20-28% trq (depending on weight) will hold your REF speed.
Click to expand...
Were you guys always 35deg? Typically I use flaps 15, 35 required close to 24% if I recall. I've only flown flaps 35 every once in a while, and I believe the buf crew was planning 15 for landing... Which means you don't have to touch em
 
Horizon's policy and standard ops for the Q400 is to land with Flaps 35. Reason is to further negate the chances of dragging the tail. With Flaps at 15, pitch angle is appox. 3/4 degrees nose up...and you can hit the tail at 6.We use Flaps 15 for CATIII-A and Single-Engine Landings. Captains are only allowed Flaps 15 and are 'encouraged' to use the HGS when conducting them.
 
Hmm... they must have been watching Porter land when they came up with that :)

Joe could prob. recall the numbers better, but i was under the impression that at you BOI, aircraft design required a 12.5 deg clear plane from the center of the wheels to the lowest part of the tail. Then again, I could be making that up( I know it was an issue in GA design esp. with the A500)

Over on the Colgan side everybody seems to do 15... and it's really nothing to get worked up about. flaps 0 on the other hand... yeh I don't wan't to try that.
 
I jumped on Lynx the other day they make them use flaps 35 every landing for same reason to make a tailstrike less likely. They have HGS too, apparently their FMS overlay approach into Aspen needs it or something.
 
Poor Lynx, those guys went to Bombardier and said "We want Q400's outfitted like Horizon's in the cockpit" (this according to our Tech Pilot's)...what they didn't realize is that Horizon installs alot of the equipment once we recieve the airplane in Portland.

We install the HGS system (saves about $75,000 over Bombardier doing it), the Cockpit Door ($35,000)...etc...

I am alittle jealous that Lynx's Q400s have recline on the seats...
 
Does Q400 has some sort of light that indicates your pitch attitude is at or above 6 degree during landing?

300 does have indication on our 802 panel.
 
The Q400's that Horizon has does not. We have the PM option on ours though...lol.

Our SOP is "The PM to call '5 degrees' with the PF taking no further action, this is considered an advisory. The PM calls '6 degrees' and the PF has to call back 'Correcting' and using power to slow the descent/increase lift. A pitch increase may result in a tailstrike."
 
Firebird2XC said:
We may be onto something here.

Is this standard procedure for Colgan Q drivers? By training or just common practice?
Click to expand...

Normally we are slowed to 180 in ewr... about the standard. On GS intercept you may actually have to reduce power i have found. If you slow before intercept, then yes you have to add power.

It's not trained, it's just the way it normally works out.
 
TUCKnTRUCK said:
Normally we are slowed to 180 in ewr... about the standard. On GS intercept you may actually have to reduce power i have found. If you slow before intercept, then yes you have to add power.

It's not trained, it's just the way it normally works out.
Click to expand...


So we have a common reference that crews were flying the airplane with and a practice that evolved from it.

What's the actual trained procedure? Flaps calls, gear call, based on certain events such as glide slope position, intercept, etc?

I'll have to carefully review the FDR/CVR reconstruction a few times..

... but I have a theory. I REALLY wish I had the actual raw data for the LOC and GS, but this is what I can derive.

If the GS was known to give erroneous or high reading if the receiving aircraft was more than 5 degrees off LOC heading, then the heading at time of stall would tell us something.

At 22:16:04, the call for "Gear Down, LOC's alive" is made, on a heading of 262. Airspeed is 181 knots.
If final approach course is 233 degrees per the most current approach plate (I have no idea what the one at the time actually said, but if there's a significant difference, somebody please tell me..)

At 22:16:27, the Q400 has slowed to 130 knots with flaps 10 and gear down. Current heading is 247, and has gradually worked its way over from 262. While the LOC alive call was made, I can't tell from the data I have on hand if the Autopilot has captured the Localizer or heading mode is just being used to slew the bug.

It's possible that given the altitude and lateral position of the aircraft, the pilot flying may have been expecting to leave the thrust levers at idle in preparation for GS intercept. This is pure speculation, but given the practice that some have hinted at in the Q400 of doing that to slow down, this seems likely.

The crash site is generally referred to as "five miles from the Buffalo airport" I can't really get more specific with this theory beyond that, but it would seem that GS intercept should have been imminent or already occurred, IF the airplane was within five degrees of the localizer heading.

Common practice vs. trained procedure rears its head.

Which begs the question.. what was the exact procedure, and how, if at all, did this crew vary from it?

The difference may be the missing link.

It's this second that shaker activation occurs.

Questions:

Would shaker activation in this configuration with the power levers at idle be normal in an icing scenario? Non-icing scenario?
 
Flaps call, gear call, then flaps call & landing check.

On the 200, the flaps speed is low (148kts) so we have to drop the gear first then flaps, then landing checks. But on the megawhacker they have more flexibility in the first degrees of flaps, which must be nice. I got to play in a 400 sim a while back (and a 767 sim too, was fun.)
 
SpiraMirabilis said:
Flaps call, gear call, then flaps call & landing check.

On the 200, the flaps speed is low (148kts) so we have to drop the gear first then flaps, then landing checks. But on the megawhacker they have more flexibility in the first degrees of flaps, which must be nice. I got to play in a 400 sim a while back (and a 767 sim too, was fun.)
Click to expand...


Which means a wider range of airspeed, requiring a 'coast down' at a low power setting prior to configuring further.

I really would need to know the exact flap limitation speeds for clean and icing conditions for the Q400 in order to know what to root around in next.

Is 130 knots an appropriate shaker activation speed based on the conditions present? Is there something that would make this seem surprising to a pilot?

There also needs to be a good, hard look at how the procedure was trained.
 
Shaker activates via fast/slow indication rather than a specific airspeed. After the buffalo crash I had my eyes on the fast/slow indicator while in approaches a lot more than normal.

I think Todd made a good point. Airline pilots aren't really trained to recover from stalls, we're trained to recover from an iminent stall but I don't think many training departments train for actual stalls. As soon as the shaker goes off we power out of the iminent stall, but hold nose level.

I didn't play in the sim enough to know about 130 kts in the 400, but 130 kts is our type 1 climb speed in the 200 so it is not really near the stalling speed for normal non-icing conditions.

Freaking 400 makes me so jealous. They climb like a bat out of hell, and cruise at like just under their barber poll like 260-280kts. Beaches :p
 
For the Q400, the flap speeds are as follows:

200 KIAS - Flaps 5
200 KIAS - Vlo
181 KIAS - Flaps 10
172 KIAS - Flaps 15
158 KIAS - Flaps 35

Those are for Icing and Non-Icing.

When ice is dectected by the probes (displayed on the ED), at Horizon we select the boots to FAST (in the approach phase) and increase the Ref Speeds.

In the sim, with Flaps 5, Gear DOWN, Boots FAST and Ref Speeds INCREASE...the lower end of the barber pole is appox. 129 KIAS.

In the Horizon Q400, we are typically going to call:

- Flaps 5
- Gear Down, Landing Checklist
- Then Flaps 10 or 15
 
SurferLucas said:
For the Q400, the flap speeds are as follows:

200 KIAS - Flaps 5
200 KIAS - Vlo
181 KIAS - Flaps 10
172 KIAS - Flaps 15
158 KIAS - Flaps 35

Those are for Icing and Non-Icing.

When ice is dectected by the probes (displayed on the ED), at Horizon we select the boots to FAST (in the approach phase) and increase the Ref Speeds.

In the sim, with Flaps 5, Gear DOWN, Boots FAST and Ref Speeds INCREASE...the lower end of the barber pole is appox. 129 KIAS.

In the Horizon Q400, we are typically going to call:

- Flaps 5
- Gear Down, Landing Checklist
- Then Flaps 10 or 15
Click to expand...

Interesting. If you were gear down, flaps 15, in ice.. what would you expect the airplane to accelerate to once on a GS decent?

Furthermore.. why do a partial flaps landing? Are there airframe reasons or just economic ones?
 
Firebird2XC said:
Interesting. If you were gear down, flaps 15, in ice.. what would you expect the airplane to accelerate to once on a GS decent?

Furthermore.. why do a partial flaps landing? Are there airframe reasons or just economic ones?
Click to expand...

To be honest, by the time we're on the glideslope, we're still at Flaps 5. Our books call for the flaps to be at 15, 1/2 dot below glideslope...however, in practical application, this doesn't work all that well.

I was taught in Initial for the Q400, to intercept the GS...and keep the Power Levers at roughly 15% trq...that would allow one to use the flaps and continue to slow while flying down the GS.

To answer the first question though, if I were in ice with Gear DOWN and Flaps at 15 (roughly 25-28% trq to maintain airspeed), the aircraft would accelerate while trying to maintain GS if you left the Power Levers at the same position.

To answer the second question, the main reason we do Flaps 15 landings for HGS/CAT III-A ops has to do with IRS and that the aircraft is being hand flown. There is such a large change in pitch when going from Flaps 15 to Flaps 35, that it would cause the HGS not to allow us to go into AIII mode.

For HGS operations, we have to follow these proceedures:

- Input the Rwy Length, TDZ elevation and GS angle into the HCP.
- Verify both ARCDU's and Nav#3 on the correct Localizer Freq.
- Select the Inbound Course on each PFD.
- Set DH and MDA bugs.
- Set Airspeed Bugs.
- ILS approaches in AIII mode MUST be flown with flaps set to 15 only.
- HGS must be in AIII mode, with gear and flaps in the landing config prior to passing the FAF.
- Autopilot must be disengaged prior to FAF.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top