Crosswind Landing

If I'm landing with a very very strong crosswind on ice I'll fly the crab all the way to the ground, but I haven't had to do that this year.
 
I prefer to teach the slip method all the way from final, basically teaching students to utilize crosswind techniques on every landing. Rudder is used to line up the nose, ailerons correct for drift.

If you teach students that way from day one, crosswinds (once they are really exposed to them) will feel natural. I'm just saying that because its rare to have a true zero-crosswind approach, and using the crab technique for every single landing really gets them ready for the real deal.

If the winds are strong, using the slip method lets you know really quickly if you've got enough rudder to tackle the crosswind component before its too late.

Personally speaking, crabbing all the way through to the flare is more fun, but....
 
I prefer to teach the slip method all the way from final, basically teaching students to utilize crosswind techniques on every landing. Rudder is used to line up the nose, ailerons correct for drift.

If you teach students that way from day one, crosswinds (once they are really exposed to them) will feel natural. I'm just saying that because its rare to have a true zero-crosswind approach, and using the crab technique for every single landing really gets them ready for the real deal.

If the winds are strong, using the slip method lets you know really quickly if you've got enough rudder to tackle the crosswind component before its too late.

Personally speaking, crabbing all the way through to the flare is more fun, but....

EXACTLY....I learned this way and have never had any surprises in steady crosswinds. Gusty conditions of course can be a different ballgame and require other "tricks"
 
I prefer to teach the slip method all the way from final, basically teaching students to utilize crosswind techniques on every landing. Rudder is used to line up the nose, ailerons correct for drift.

If you teach students that way from day one, crosswinds (once they are really exposed to them) will feel natural. I'm just saying that because its rare to have a true zero-crosswind approach, and using the crab technique for every single landing really gets them ready for the real deal.

If the winds are strong, using the slip method lets you know really quickly if you've got enough rudder to tackle the crosswind component before its too late.

Personally speaking, crabbing all the way through to the flare is more fun, but....

The airplane has quite a bit of momentum, and if you try to slip all the way you may not be able to get down when the winds are excessive (e.g. 40kts across) because you'll already be out of rudder. If you crab then kick, you can time your drift in get that upwind tire on the ground then the rest is easy enough before you get blown away. If it doesn't work, you've almost got flying speed winds, and a go around is easy. I wouldn't recommend flying when the wx is that blowy, but that being said, it works.
 
I prefer to teach the slip method all the way from final, basically teaching students to utilize crosswind techniques on every landing. Rudder is used to line up the nose, ailerons correct for drift.

If you teach students that way from day one, crosswinds (once they are really exposed to them) will feel natural. I'm just saying that because its rare to have a true zero-crosswind approach, and using the crab technique for every single landing really gets them ready for the real deal.

If the winds are strong, using the slip method lets you know really quickly if you've got enough rudder to tackle the crosswind component before its too late.

Personally speaking, crabbing all the way through to the flare is more fun, but....

I agree with teaching students to line up on final already slipping, but just so they can get lined up and stabilized and learn the proper slipping technique without having to rush it in short final. The more advanced they get they will figure out what works best for them.
 
.....If you crab then kick, you can time your drift in get that upwind tire on the ground then the rest is easy enough before you get blown away. If it doesn't work, you've almost got flying speed winds, and a go around is easy. I wouldn't recommend flying when the wx is that blowy, but that being said, it works.

Nice! Haven't been there yet - but thats gonna be sticking in the back of my head when I need it in the future!

Truth be told, I'll probably keep teaching the same way though ;).
 
If you try that with the small version of the Arctic RJ you WILL drag a wingtip. When we went through a hiring boom earlier this year we had three of four wing strikes because of new guys trying to land it like they were still in a 172.

Heard about those from a PSA 700 FO that was JSing on one of my ATR flights. One was on IOE.

Personally, I crab until the flare then kick the rudder at the last second with slight upwind wing down.
 
The more advanced they get they will figure out what works best for them.
That's true. But students tend to adopt their instructor's preferred techniques without too much question. The idea is for the CFI to explain the continuum and allow the student to find her own path (sounds like a cross between Star Trek and Kung Fu).
 
Heard about those from a PSA 700 FO that was JSing on one of my ATR flights. One was on IOE.

Personally, I crab until the flare then kick the rudder at the last second with slight upwind wing down.

Actually, I think two were on IOE. One was on the first leg of IOE though.

I use the same technique. In the 200 it's really easy as the plane is so responsive. I think the 700 is a bit clunky at slow airspeeds, but that could just be because I don't fly it as much.
 
Actually, I think two were on IOE. One was on the first leg of IOE though.

I use the same technique. In the 200 it's really easy as the plane is so responsive. I think the 700 is a bit clunky at slow airspeeds, but that could just be because I don't fly it as much.

The 700 is definitely clunky at slow airspeeds. It must be the slats.
 
I teach students both methods (side slip & crab) although I personally use the side slip method flying GA aircraft in strong, gusty crosswinds. I'll crab during lighter winds and during the flare kick the rudder for landing. I have found the side slip method helps with the muscle memory flying final.

The 747-200 flight manual states the pilot can use either method during the approach to land. Pilots choice.
 
So just out of curiosity, do the instructors in part 121 training teach or tell you the "preferred" method they want you to land company aircraft in? Obviously these guys at PSA had struck the wing tip on landing, and I'm just curious if they were told during training not to do it that way.

I know in my flight training, I learned both ways of flying the crosswind approach. The instructor I did a majority of my training with taught me to fly aileron into the wind, and keep the nose straight with the rudder. And if you are flying it right, you land initially on one wheel. He even had me flying this way in the twin Comanche.
 
I kick at the end... it's a combination of being lazy and what I seem to be the most comfortable with.

I'm not going to say that slipping is the wrong way to do it but from personal experience, that last 50 feet often has a large wind shift due to trees, buildings, terrain, etc. So, starting a slip at 1000 feet doesn't necessarily help a whole lot unless your landing in the midwest and the tallest thing for 300 miles is a telephone poll or you're landing at a large airport where there are few obstructions. If you have any obstructions around there's a good chance you'll be set up beautifully with a slip for the first 950 feet of descent on final just to end up kicking the rudder around to make it work that last 50 feet.
 
So just out of curiosity, do the instructors in part 121 training teach or tell you the "preferred" method they want you to land company aircraft in? Obviously these guys at PSA had struck the wing tip on landing, and I'm just curious if they were told during training not to do it that way.

I know in my flight training, I learned both ways of flying the crosswind approach. The instructor I did a majority of my training with taught me to fly aileron into the wind, and keep the nose straight with the rudder. And if you are flying it right, you land initially on one wheel. He even had me flying this way in the twin Comanche.

I dont know about anywhere but when I was in sim training here at Mesaba, we did only a few crosswind landings and were more concerned with other things being accomplished. The instructors were more like "yeah you'll really fine tune your landings once you get to the line."

So I dont know, we did do plenty of landings but in they didnt stress the crosswind technique a whole lot when I was in training.
 
Just curious, is there something about flying transport category aircraft that make the aerodynamics of crosswind landings different than general aviation aircraft?

The reason I ask is because it seems as though some posters who fly RJs and such act as if the "slip" and "crab and kick" methods are distinctly different. From everything I can tell, they're identical at the moment of touchdown...or at least they should be.

The wings will be in the same attitude, the upwind wheel will touch down first, the controls will be equally effective, speeds will be identical, etc. regardless of the method used. At least this is how it is for general aviation birds. In small planes, really the only distinction between the two methods is when the side slip is initiated, sooner or later...yet in both cases, the aircraft will be in an identical side slip at the moment of touchdown. I don't understand how things like scraping a wingtip or engine pod have anything to do with the crosswind technique used.

Does the larger mass or swept wings of airliners somehow change their crosswind handling characteristics?
 
The reason I ask is because it seems as though some posters who fly RJs and such act as if the "slip" and "crab and kick" methods are distinctly different. From everything I can tell, they're identical at the moment of touchdown...or at least they should be.

For a thread about crosswind landings, it seems that most are actually discussing crosswind approach techniques. I prefer the crab down final and transistion to an aileron into, opposite rudder configuration during the roundout and flare... regardless if I am flying the RJ or my Citabria.

To further the discussion on the final approach technique, for those of you who slip down final, do you use the same technique on an instrument approach or do you crab into the wind?
 
The 747-200 flight manual states the pilot can use either method during the approach to land. Pilots choice.

It also says that you can land in a crab if I remember right....Then again, the common practice in both the -200 and -400, was to keep the wings level and steer it with the rudder below 500' AGL to keep the pods away from the concrete. Yaw Damps on the Boeing are nice....

So just out of curiosity, do the instructors in part 121 training teach or tell you the "preferred" method they want you to land company aircraft in? Obviously these guys at PSA had struck the wing tip on landing, and I'm just curious if they were told during training not to do it that way.

I know in my flight training, I learned both ways of flying the crosswind approach. The instructor I did a majority of my training with taught me to fly aileron into the wind, and keep the nose straight with the rudder. And if you are flying it right, you land initially on one wheel. He even had me flying this way in the twin Comanche.

Each air carrier's operating manual and training program is, usually, some form of the program developed by the manufacturer. Some more highly modified than others. That being said, after 5 airplane initials, 2 "short courses" and the other stuff, the first time I heard anything about watching your bank was in 747 schools.

Both the E145 and E170 I took into max crosswinds, with a slip in the flare, and never worried about bank angle.

Just curious, is there something about flying transport category aircraft that make the aerodynamics of crosswind landings different than general aviation aircraft?

The reason I ask is because it seems as though some posters who fly RJs and such act as if the "slip" and "crab and kick" methods are distinctly different. From everything I can tell, they're identical at the moment of touchdown...or at least they should be.

The wings will be in the same attitude, the upwind wheel will touch down first, the controls will be equally effective, speeds will be identical, etc. regardless of the method used. At least this is how it is for general aviation birds. In small planes, really the only distinction between the two methods is when the side slip is initiated, sooner or later...yet in both cases, the aircraft will be in an identical side slip at the moment of touchdown. I don't understand how things like scraping a wingtip or engine pod have anything to do with the crosswind technique used.

Does the larger mass or swept wings of airliners somehow change their crosswind handling characteristics?

Mass has a role in the lead time, but you adjust to that easily.

Swept wing aero plays a role in it to a greater extent. I'd go into theory, but grayson would have to go back and fill in all the gaps in knowledge.

However, the crosswind limits are usually significantly higher than a light GA airplane. Sometimes bank angles for a slip can get kind of steep. If you operate an airplane within the limits assigned and designed by the manufacturer, you SHOULDN'T touch metal. However, as we all know, theory and practice aren't always perfectly congruent.
 
Beyond the fact that I really can't slip the airframe I fly now, from a passenger comfort point of view, it doesn't make sense to go into a slip at the FAF.
 
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