Crisis in Flight Training

[wheelsup]

If, when their loans were defaulted upon, the Bankstas actually lost money, one imagines they might stop most ricky-tick. The problem is that we live in a kleptocracy. The machinery of the ultra-rich swindlers is in control of our political process (research carefully and see how many former Goldman-Sachs employees are in positions of great governmental power...then tell me the last time Goldman-Sachs didn't get what it wanted).

If the loans are defaulted upon, blammo, the government will just print and hand money to the Bankstas. I remain absolutely dumfounded at the total lack of outrage amongst the bovine electorate. The Republic is being eviscerated, we're being led like cattle to the slaughter in to a future of yobbish, ignorant serfdom, and everyone is happily chewing their cud and plotting their next consumer electronics purchase (Or their glamorous future as a $18/hour Airline Pilot)

Don't forget the point that student loans and access to them have rapidly increased the cost of higher education as well - just like cheap credit inflated the housing boom.

The two are more related that people think.

MORE GOVERNMENT REGULATION WON'T SOLVE THE PROBLEM. The free market will fix this problem. I promise. We just need to give it a chance to work.

 

[Customx]

Just thought I'd throw my story out there to illustrate Ian's point.

I came to Korea in 2005 to teach English, pay off my student loan, and save money to become a pilot. I could have returned to America in 2007, gone to ATP or somewhere else and gone from zero to hero in a few months. Most likely I would have needed a loan for about $20k, but I decided to stay in Korea and continue to save, even as I read these forums about people getting hired left and right at regionals. Now, almost 5 years later, I have enough money to pay for my ratings in cash.

I'm not saying my way was perfect, but it will probably work out better in the long run since I won't have a loan hanging over my head. I also found a job I love (teaching) and can always fall back on this if the whole pilot thing doesn't work out.

 

[Murdoughnut]

Hi Guys,

Just another data point...the place I went to go do a checkout in a 172...yea, that's right, everyone's beloved four-banger...was a hassle.

They had such an inane list of rules/dos/don'ts I don't know where to start (can't go across state lines ?!?). The management was toolish, the prices high, the CFIs rude, and scheduling anything other than a dual flight seemed to be fraught with difficulty (which is, um, the point of getting checked out in a rental bird).

Word:

1) I don't need a 5 hour checkout in a 172.
2) I don't need ANOTHER 5 hour checkout in a 152/PA28/whatever AFTER the 172
3) I don't need to do a 2 hour "refresher" period with a CFI every 90 days irregardless of the amount I've flown.

If you don't want to rent aircraft, fine, then don't. But don't advertise that you do, and make it insanely difficult to do so AFTER you've got my $$ for a checkout.

I swear, some places bring it on themselves. Not just this one place, but I've seen a lot of places lately (cough-Apple Store-cough) where you practically have to WAVE a fist full of dollars and beg them to take your money.

Weird....

Richman

Although not as bad, I had a similar experience when I went to rent a 172. Had to repeat the entire PPL checkride (nearly 2-hours) and you had to re-check out every 90-days. They said it was an insurance requirement, but I never rented there again.

 

[jhugz]

He has desire and a good work ethic and that is all it takes.

And his parents check book. I know he didn't pay for it all through Mickey D's. Good for him for having a job but no way in hell did he pay for all that and I heard that straight from the source.

I know I remember you telling me when you where in high school that your Dad was paying for your lessons. I'm not saying I'm totally independent and my parents haven't helped me at all but it aggravates me to no end when someone talks about not taking debt and doing things the responsible way when they are using bank of mom & dad and pointing fingers at others less fortunate then their situation.

Bottom Line: If you can take the debt & pay your bills then do it. If you use your parents to pay your bills fine no worries if your parents are cool w/ it. Just don't get in over your head w/ debt with no way out. I'm currently feeling these strains more and more with my present position and would hate to leave any of my problems on the shoulders of my parents. I will leave aviation for good and work the drive-thru before I let my parents lose the house over my bills.

[/end sleepless night rant]

 

[Ian_J]

How is providing for your kid up until they are a legal adult irressponsible? I'm glad you live in a perfect world. :whatever:

I'm sorry, I think we may have misunderstood each other. When you were talking about the "point" you were making, I thought you were referring to this, specifically the bolded:

:rotfl:
I have tons of friends not in aviation that are still repaying loans. For the average kid these days, that's how it is. Unless you live in Fl, where the cost of college tuition is lower than it costs to send a kid to daycare.
I graduated high school 8 years ago and I think 95% of my class went to college. I would wager the money I will make from now til the end of the year that if I were able to poll them, over half would have student loans and of that 50%, 90+% did not repay them in 2 years. I mean even if you only took out 10 grand, in 2 years that's over 400/mo not even counting interest rates.
I'm basing 10 grand off of UT being I believe 13k/yr, and I don't know very many people who's parents had 50k+ laying around.

I of course think providing for your child is responsible - not sure how we got our wires crossed there.

A lot of stuff you post here is awsome Ian. But I didn't have the opportunity to have any money for ANYTHING from my parents for my future.

I come from blu collar 'murica. My mother and father did everything they could to keep a roof over mine and my brothers heads growing up. They are just now in a position now that my brother and I are no longer a burdon to put more money away for them selfs.

I completely understand that. I didn't mean to imply it was the child's fault if the parents didn't save for their education. There's nothing you can do about that - I agree.

I had no other choice but to finance my education.

I really understand why you think that - the prevailing culture taught you that. Luckily you have the opportunity to break the chain and teach your child how not to get into debt.

But did you really have no other choices? Could you have got straight As in High School and earned a scholarship? Could you have joined the military? Could you have worked full time and gone to school at night paying as you went? Could you have worked part time while in High School to help pay tuition? Did you apply for every grant and scholarship you could find? The list goes on and on. And this isn't meant to beat you up - it's is just meant to illustrate the numerous possibilities available to pay for an education. Unfortunately, the first place people's minds go to when they want to go to college is "student loan." This is a culture I believe needs to be changed.

Especially after haveing a kid. And if I have the money left over at then end of the month (being that I am pay check to pay check right now) I will put money away for my son. Thats the reason why the current plan is to have one kid.

That's awesome. Have you taken in kind of financial management training? Sounds like you have the right mind to actually use and apply that knowledge.

Like someone else said, get out of your perfect world, and come back to our reality of haze.

Come on now... I'm far from living in a perfect world. While my own middle-middle class parents did save money for my education, I chose not to use it and joined the military instead.

People get a little emotional when someone suggests student loans aren't needed. They do this for a few reasons - defending their parents - defending their own choices - etc. But when you remove all that emotion and really look into it is the advice I'm giving really that bad? Can you go back with 20/20 hindsight and really not see how you could have avoided student loans?

 

[Ian_J]

Sorry - just one more thing since I was mainly talking about paying for a college education while a lot of people are talking about loans for flight training.

How do you pay for flight training yourself and not take out a loan? (military route excluded) Simple - but most won't like it. You delay your flight training until you can afford it. Get a good solid college education. Get a good non-flying job. Live on far less than you make. Pay for flight training in cash.

It might take a while, but is the better option to take out a large training loan you can barely pay back while spending years earning CFI wages? Lots of you guys are doing that presently... how's it working out?

 

[Murdoughnut]

Don't forget the point that student loans and access to them have rapidly increased the cost of higher education as well - just like cheap credit inflated the housing boom.

The two are more related that people think.

MORE GOVERNMENT REGULATION WON'T SOLVE THE PROBLEM. The free market will fix this problem. I promise. We just need to give it a chance to work.

Under a purely free market system, schools and banks get together to gouge students by limiting their options, creating a de facto monopoly that benefits both at the expense of the student. My alma mater (Texas Tech) recently admitted to doing just that.

I'm a fan of the free market system with substantial government refereeing. Kinda like the system we have right now (when the referee is paying attention)

 

[Inverted25]

I know I remember you telling me when you where in high school that your Dad was paying for your lessons. I'm not saying I'm totally independent and my parents haven't helped me at all but it aggravates me to no end when someone talks about not taking debt and doing things the responsible way when they are using bank of mom & dad and pointing fingers at others less fortunate then their situation.

Yes my dad paid for my private. And I dont try and hide that. But I have paid for all further ratings. Now given I did have it easier because I was flying my uncle's cherokee only paying for gas but that doesn't mean other can't find ways to do it either. And I'm not pointing fingers I'm saying that if you can't afford to do it without taking on more debt than you can afford to pay off making a regional salary than you should save and wait. Regardless of how you come up with the money. If my dad didn't pay for my private I would still be in the same situation I am today for the fact I have a very good paying job now. Unfortunately the world isnt fair and those less fortunate may have to delay becoming a pilot till they save up enough money to do so. That's just life. That's why people who want to become pilots need to sit back and look realistically at what they will make and if they can afford it. The problem is too many people feel entitled to become pilots and than want to blame everyone else when up to their eyeballs in debt saying well I was just less fortunate than you. That's not a excuse.

 

[dasleben]

Yes my dad paid for my private. And I dont try and hide that. But I have paid for all further ratings. Now given I did have it easier because I was flying my uncle's cherokee only paying for gas but that doesn't mean other can't find ways to do it either. And I'm not pointing fingers I'm saying that if you can't afford to do it without taking on more debt than you can afford to pay off making a regional salary than you should save and wait. Regardless of how you come up with the money. If my dad didn't pay for my private I would still be in the same situation I am today for the fact I have a very good paying job now. Unfortunately the world isnt fair and those less fortunate may have to delay becoming a pilot till they save up enough money to do so. That's just life. That's why people who want to become pilots need to sit back and look realistically at what they will make and if they can afford it. The problem is too many people feel entitled to become pilots and than want to blame everyone else when up to their eyeballs in debt saying well I was just less fortunate than you. That's not a excuse.

So, let me get this straight...

Your dad paid for your private, and you only had to pay for gas in your uncle's Cherokee for your ratings thereafter. Don't think even for a minute that everyone else has it that good. Don't come on here spouting drivel about entitlement when you were handed all of that on a silver platter.

 

[Inverted25]

I'm not saying anyone has it that good. But I know two other who had it much better than me. Plus I rented the schools 172 for my 45 hours it took to get a instrument rating bc my uncles plane was unavailable at the time because he was having new avionics put in. And I used the schools 182RG for com/cfi so I rented about 100 hours from the school. Plus another 55 for the private so I still rented around 155 hours at the school rates. But there is a buddy of mine who dad owns a 310 so he has like 200 multi time now and hes 19. So to me he has it on a silver platter and I'm struggling to find a way to get multi. Everyone's situation is different. Logan at my school who is the 18 year old CFI became such good friends with alot of airplane owners he was flying their mooneys and cherokees on a regular basic not even paying fuel! So you can find ways if you have people skills to make it work for you.

 

[juan valdez]

I'm sorry, I think we may have misunderstood each other. When you were talking about the "point" you were making, I thought you were referring to this, specifically the bolded:



I of course think providing for your child is responsible - not sure how we got our wires crossed there.



I completely understand that. I didn't mean to imply it was the child's fault if the parents didn't save for their education. There's nothing you can do about that - I agree.



I really understand why you think that - the prevailing culture taught you that. Luckily you have the opportunity to break the chain and teach your child how not to get into debt.

But did you really have no other choices? Could you have got straight As in High School and earned a scholarship? Could you have joined the military? Could you have worked full time and gone to school at night paying as you went? Could you have worked part time while in High School to help pay tuition? Did you apply for every grant and scholarship you could find? The list goes on and on. And this isn't meant to beat you up - it's is just meant to illustrate the numerous possibilities available to pay for an education. Unfortunately, the first place people's minds go to when they want to go to college is "student loan." This is a culture I believe needs to be changed.



That's awesome. Have you taken in kind of financial management training? Sounds like you have the right mind to actually use and apply that knowledge.



Come on now... I'm far from living in a perfect world. While my own middle-middle class parents did save money for my education, I chose not to use it and joined the military instead.

People get a little emotional when someone suggests student loans aren't needed. They do this for a few reasons - defending their parents - defending their own choices - etc. But when you remove all that emotion and really look into it is the advice I'm giving really that bad? Can you go back with 20/20 hindsight and really not see how you could have avoided student loans?

exactly, you quoted me and said all you see are a bunch of irressponsible people that I know. The implication there is that my friends parents are irressponsible because they didnt give them money for school. Or didn't have enough saved to pay for all their school. Or like in my sisters case is unable to stash away almost 1000/mo for her kids college. You claim that your point is simple, student loans are not neccesary. :whatever: For a great many people they are. And again, not for you Ian but for others who are only talking about flight training, I'm not talking about taking out 100 grand loan to go to ERAU, I'm talking about people who went to CC for two years and then make the jump to a 4 year institution and need money to pay for it.
And going into the military simply to get money for college is retarded and that should be outlawed, not the benefit of the gi bill, but simply going in for the money. YOu are going into a highly dangerous field with the wrong intentions. Plus with two wars going on and god knows what is going to happen with NK or Iran it seems pretty likely if you join you will find yourself in a war zone, which many people probably don't want to be in.

 

[poser765]

hmm interesting topic for another thread. Does one who joins the military have to have a pure heart full of patriotism and willingness to serve for serving's sake? Or is ok to enlist for the benifits and experience?

 

[USMCmech]

hmm interesting topic for another thread. Does one who joins the military have to have a pure heart full of patriotism and willingness to serve for serving's sake? Or is ok to enlist for the benifits and experience?

Myself, it was a combination of the two.

 

[MikeD]

hmm interesting topic for another thread. Does one who joins the military have to have a pure heart full of patriotism and willingness to serve for serving's sake? Or is ok to enlist for the benifits and experience?

I think Juan is referring to the risks these days of military service....what with ongoing wars, etc; vs the reward for someone only wanting to joing for bene's. Kind of a gamble there, is the point I think he's trying to make.

I could be wrong though.

 

[poser765]

I think Juan is referring to the risks these days of military service....what with ongoing wars, etc; vs the reward for someone only wanting to joing for bene's. Kind of a gamble there, is the point I think he's trying to make.

I could be wrong though.

yeah i think I saw that in there as well. It still does bring up a fun topic maybe. Maybe not. /melodrama topics i start tend to not last very long. /melodrama off.

Anyway...back on topic.

 

[wheelsup]

Under a purely free market system, schools and banks get together to gouge students by limiting their options, creating a de facto monopoly that benefits both at the expense of the student. My alma mater (Texas Tech) recently admitted to doing just that.

Of course. However look at what I wrote again. If the Government subsidizes lending, giving the lender guaranteed profits, while pushing down the cost of credit, what will follow? Increasing debt, which leads to bubbles.

The Federal Reserve was created to "smooth out" the busts and to quickly add liquidity (ie inflation) into the market. A good example of its effectiveness people give is the 1930's depression. However what they leave out is the fact that the Federal Reserve created the bubble that led up to the "bubble" bursting resulting in the depression. Convenient, huh?

Had we not had the cheap credit and housing boom, would we need the Federal Reserve to print trillions in dollars to bailout all these companies? NO! The bubble wouldn't have existed in the first place! Just another example of unintended consequences.

I'm a fan of the free market system with substantial government refereeing. Kinda like the system we have right now (when the referee is paying attention)

We don't have that system now, not even close. Government intervention happens throughout our lives, the "cheapening" (ie subsidizing) of credit being one of the most substantial. The Federal Reserve, for all intensive purposes a private entity, has a large impact over our country. The ironic part is the Government certainly doesn't want to get rid of it, as it's the means at which the Government can fund these endless wars. The inflation it wields is the most unfair tax of all, and impacts the poor and the lower middle class the most.

 

[ahsmatt7]

Ill put my two cents in. I am currently a full time student at the University of Texas at San Antonio. I have a job which was full time but now I have about half the hours and im making 7.55 an hr. I am currently working on my PPL which i am paying for straight cash as I go. My point or it may be a question is this. MY last flight was my first solo- cross country and that was about a month ago. In the last three months i flew twice.

How am i supposed to keep my skills strong?

I study all the ground material so thats not a problem. I also try to wash planes but i rarely have time. It just doesn't make sense to pay as you go 100% if you loose your muscle skills and decision making skills. I don't know exactly how you guys did it 100%. Also, most people who finance their training want to fly for the airlines. I have always heard form JC and other sources that if you want to fly for the airlines you have to get done first and get hired first. Well how can you get hired first when you just finished your comm. while the airlines begin to hire. Throw in a couple of yrs for QUALITY time building and yea you may get hired but you have a good chance of getting furloughed first.

That brings something else to mind. One may not have debt to pay off but it still will feel the same knowing you spent thousands of dollars just to get laid off while you see the guys who financed their training sitting in the left seat making enough to live off of an possibly more.

I sm talking strictly financial business here. So do not bring up the point saying well the guy in the left seat may not have enough experience to actually be worth it in that position. In all reality, some of the guys who only flew once o month may be more of a risk than the guy who had it shoved down their throat or went to an institution that taught them the stuff left and left.

My thoughts on the whole subject are this. Always have options. I have TONS of them. If you know you can afford to pay back the loans then great. At the same time, in order to get ahead it takes sacrifice and that is left to the person who pulled out the loan to decide wether they want to end up in debt or leave the loan to the co-signer...if they had to have one.

 

[Boris Badenov]

We don't have that system now, not even close. Government intervention happens throughout our lives, the "cheapening" (ie subsidizing) of credit being one of the most substantial. The Federal Reserve, for all intensive purposes a private entity, has a large impact over our country. The ironic part is the Government certainly doesn't want to get rid of it, as it's the means at which the Government can fund these endless wars. The inflation it wields is the most unfair tax of all, and impacts the poor and the lower middle class the most.

I predict this little gem of truth will be completely ignored while everyone wrings their hands about how to afford whatever next thing won't make them happy.

Banksters have long realized that convincing the Sheeple of the necessity of being fleeced makes them much easier to pack off to the slaughter when the time comes to cull.

It's not crazy if it's true. Sometimes I feel like I'm a character in Watership Down.

 

[Ian_J]

exactly, you quoted me and said all you see are a bunch of irressponsible people that I know. The implication there is that my friends parents are irressponsible because they didnt give them money for school. Or didn't have enough saved to pay for all their school. Or like in my sisters case is unable to stash away almost 1000/mo for her kids college. You claim that your point is simple, student loans are not neccesary. :whatever: For a great many people they are.

All your saying is these people don't have the money... I understand that. The question is why don't they have it?

You never answered my questions either.

Student loans are not required. They are a crutch. If you really want to go to school I bet you can go without them - may not be the school you want, and it may not be when you are 18... but I bet you can go.

I'd be happy to sit down with anyone and go over a sound financial plan on how to do so based on specific situations.

And going into the military simply to get money for college is retarded and that should be outlawed, not the benefit of the gi bill, but simply going in for the money. YOu are going into a highly dangerous field with the wrong intentions. Plus with two wars going on and god knows what is going to happen with NK or Iran it seems pretty likely if you join you will find yourself in a war zone, which many people probably don't want to be in.

Not at all what I suggested. The military is just one option of many.

 

[ahsmatt7]

so you when do you suppose to go to school...when your thirty. While one can't go to school, how do they get a decent job? You are right, loans are a crutch. Some do need that crutch.

Just like one may need crutches when they have a broken leg. Im pretty sure there are many possibilities to get around without them though.

Here is a perspective. The reason why i don't have money to consistently fly is that I pay bills and on top of that im saving up jsut for a nice nest egg so if I get furloughed or have a tragedy(god forbid) I will have some left over. After I pay what I need to pay and save what I need to save, I have an extremely small amount of money left over. Mak ea long story short, money is the only thing holding me back. Am i gonna jump in to a loan? Nope, not without researching. However, it is a big possibility.