Crisis in Flight Training

[Boris Badenov]

Your funeral. I'm always amused when kids get snippy when advised not to take out loans. Heck, it's better for me if you're so in debt you have to get in to a more lucrative line of work. supply/demand! My advice: Borrow as much as you can get your hands on. Extra points for a high interest rate.

 

[ahsmatt7]

Your funeral. I'm always amused when kids get snippy when advised not to take out loans. Heck, it's better for me if you're so in debt you have to get in to a more lucrative line of work. supply/demand! My advice: Borrow as much as you can get your hands on. Extra points for a high interest rate.

I wouldnt call it snippy. I have been advised not to take out loans my whole life by my parents and the rest of the adults in my family. Im very lucky to have them pay for my college. It seems though that since everyone complains about not having senority and since thats all this industry runs, alot of the people dont have other viable options. Yes there are options but all this talk about when people retire you gotta have your hours if you wanna job it makes those options look like they wont work.

My take on the situation is this. Personally, ill do everything I can to minimize debt. Like everyone says in the past and present. One has to know the risks of getting in this line of work. I know them and i plan accordingly. Honestly your statement doesnt really pertain to me and my plans. I do however want to see what ways one can minimize debt and still be competitive in the next five years when you are in my situation...which alot of people are.

Honestly, It would be nice for all the people who actually made it in this line of work that have NEVER had any debt to shine some light on the ways you guys/gals made it happen. Instead of pointing fingers, how about educate. You may actually do some good. Hell you may motivate someone enough to take the leap and start saving. Dont be so quick to judge...

 

[wheelsup]

Taking an education loan out is a gamble. Some can be more calculated. For example - a doctor, nurse, accountant, engineer, etc. can reasonably expect to land a decent paying job out of college*. A pilot? The likely hood is much slimmer unless the timing is great. I know a guy who went to ATP for 90 days, instructed 3 months, went to XJT, upgraded in 18 months, and a year after that he's making six figures working for a large Fortune 500 corporation. In his case, it worked to his advantage to leverage and get that training note.

Because education loans are subsidized, lending institutions don't "qualify" people for loans nearly as much as they should. For example, would you lend out $100k in unsecured credit (credit card) to someone making $15k-$25k a year for low interest rates (10%)? Probably not. But now would you lend that out if you were guaranteed by the Government to not lose their $$? Banks go even one step further, they get a loan from the Federal Reserve to loan out money based on fraction reserve banking and collect the difference of interest, so they make money for not even lending their own money. The statement "it takes money to make money" doesn't apply to banks.

 

[Ian_J]

so you when do you suppose to go to school...when your thirty.

I propose you go to school when you can afford it. If you didn't get good enough grades to get a scholarship, didn't have parents who planned for your eduction, didn't apply for or receive any grant money, didn't join the military, didn't work part-time in High School, didn't try for community college for the first two years, didn't expect/want to work while in college, didn't become an RA/TA/ work for the college while in college, wanted to go out of state or to a private school instead of choosing a local state college - then I don't know.

Honestly, It would be nice for all the people who actually made it in this line of work that have NEVER had any debt to shine some light on the ways you guys/gals made it happen. Instead of pointing fingers, how about educate. You may actually do some good. Hell you may motivate someone enough to take the leap and start saving. Dont be so quick to judge...

I'm not in your industry anymore but it doesn't really matter. And I personally am not judging anyone or pointing fingers - heck - I thought I WAS educating. The response I'm getting is emotional and full of "can'ts."

When it comes to parents, there's nothing that can be done about those who haven't planned for your future - but there IS hope for you current and future parents. Make a sound financial plan for your kids' future. Plain and simple. Nothing wrong with making them contribute either, but a few hundred a month can help break this education loan sickness.

It's funny... here on JC I'll see thread where a bunch of broke, indebted CFIs/regional FOs are bitching about their brokeness and their debt, and then on the same day in another thread I'll see them talking about their iphones, their satallite TV (plus sports package!), their restaurants they go to, their new cars, their motorcycles, their new gaming systems, and their new guitar hero games. You'll see new airline guys buying brand new top of the line luggage instead of used (investment!); you'll see guys buying brand new GPS systems (I need situational awareness!).

And then I'm told it isn't possible to go to college without student loans?

Again, if someone would like an enthusiasts point of view, I'd be happy to sit down with anyone and help them develop a plan based on their specific situation.

EDIT: I have made some tremendously stupid mistakes with money in my life. Don't want anyone to think my point of view comes from perfection or anything.

 

[Hacker15e]

for all intensive purposes

"intents and purposes"

 

[Hacker15e]

Just to provide another perspective, I was able to live on my own, pay for college, and pay for my flight training (just through PPL) all without a loan or any financial aid. At the same time, I was also doing AF ROTC so I could join the AF after getting my degree (and, no, I was not on a ROTC scholarship).

It CAN be done.

Time management, money management, and lifestyle management skills are required, though.

 

[Goonie]

3) I don't need to do a 2 hour "refresher" period with a CFI every 90 days irregardless of the amount I've flown.

Although not as bad, I had a similar experience when I went to rent a 172. Had to repeat the entire PPL checkride (nearly 2-hours) and you had to re-check out every 90-days. They said it was an insurance requirement, but I never rented there again.

It is more than likely an insurance requirement.

As far as too many hoops to jump through to get checked out, I have seen people pretty much buy a PPL. There are some people that shouldn't be flying. You have to go through a lot of hoops to rent a car or even rent a movie from Blockbuster.

The 5 hour 172 checkouts are probably for the G1000 which IS a required insurance checkout. I agree, it is ridiculous.

 

[mshunter]

I completely understand that. I didn't mean to imply it was the child's fault if the parents didn't save for their education. There's nothing you can do about that - I agree.

I understood there was nothing I could have done about it. And there was nothing my parents could have done about it either, that was my point.

 

[Mike H]

for all intensive purposes

intents and purposes"

You trying to damage his self-of-steam?

 

[juan valdez]

I think Juan is referring to the risks these days of military service....what with ongoing wars, etc; vs the reward for someone only wanting to joing for bene's. Kind of a gamble there, is the point I think he's trying to make.

I could be wrong though.

Yes you are right. At the beginning of the wars a lot of people were crying about how unfair it was to have to go to war whenall they wanted was free education money. Can't use that cop out now as anyone still in knows what's what but I still feel either way that to simply sign up for education money would be stupid. If that is only one of several reasons that's different. I myself am not mr patriotic but went in with the right attitude. I've seen a ton of people who hated it and made things difficult on themselves and the rest of the people they work with.

 

[SteveC]

[ ... ]

Everything Ian says, X 2.

 

[SteveC]

"intents and purposes"

Thank you.

You trying to damage his self-of-steam?

I chuckled out loud.

 

[ahsmatt7]

I propose you go to school when you can afford it. If you didn't get good enough grades to get a scholarship, didn't have parents who planned for your eduction, didn't apply for or receive any grant money, didn't join the military, didn't work part-time in High School, didn't try for community college for the first two years, didn't expect/want to work while in college, didn't become an RA/TA/ work for the college while in college, wanted to go out of state or to a private school instead of choosing a local state college - then I don't know.




I'm not in your industry anymore but it doesn't really matter. And I personally am not judging anyone or pointing fingers - heck - I thought I WAS educating. The response I'm getting is emotional and full of "can'ts."

When it comes to parents, there's nothing that can be done about those who haven't planned for your future - but there IS hope for you current and future parents. Make a sound financial plan for your kids' future. Plain and simple. Nothing wrong with making them contribute either, but a few hundred a month can help break this education loan sickness.

It's funny... here on JC I'll see thread where a bunch of broke, indebted CFIs/regional FOs are bitching about their brokeness and their debt, and then on the same day in another thread I'll see them talking about their iphones, their satallite TV (plus sports package!), their restaurants they go to, their new cars, their motorcycles, their new gaming systems, and their new guitar hero games. You'll see new airline guys buying brand new top of the line luggage instead of used (investment!); you'll see guys buying brand new GPS systems (I need situational awareness!).

And then I'm told it isn't possible to go to college without student loans?

Again, if someone would like an enthusiasts point of view, I'd be happy to sit down with anyone and help them develop a plan based on their specific situation.

EDIT: I have made some tremendously stupid mistakes with money in my life. Don't want anyone to think my point of view comes from perfection or anything.

I agree on you your statements about pilots and young folk who spend on a whim and not thinking about the bills. I am lucky enough to have that lesson pounded in my head for years....."Always save for a rainy day" my mom would say. Also, I myself will do EVERYTHING I can to finish my training debt free. I am realistic and realize that I may end up having some....but not alot.

I am not a strong advocate for loans but I do understand where these kids come from. It is scary looking at the cost of an IFR ticket and then the Comm. license and thinking how I could ever come up with the cost myself. Not to mention an MEL rating. I think the "need" that the people feel to take out a loan comes from the feeling of being alone financially and scared about not being able to do something they have always wanted to do. Do I feel entitled to finishing my training now? Of course not. Heck I am concentrating more on getting my degree. That being said, I am at no age to have children but I 100% agree with teaching one's kids how to save for their own future. I will admit that I may have gotten emotional but at the same time who doesn't. I am merely giving a perspective to the topic hoping to incorporate both view points.

I think the "need" that the people feel to take out a loan comes from the feeling of being alone financially and scared about not being able to do something they have always wanted to do.

 

[ahsmatt7]

Just to provide another perspective, I was able to live on my own, pay for college, and pay for my flight training (just through PPL) all without a loan or any financial aid. At the same time, I was also doing AF ROTC so I could join the AF after getting my degree (and, no, I was not on a ROTC scholarship).

It CAN be done.

Time management, money management, and lifestyle management skills are required, though.

Sadly though, how many kids do you know have all those. Some do and i respect those kids. i am glad my parents taught me the value of hard work and how you have to save an spend your money wisely because you never know when it will all be gone.

 

[granlistillo]

Does one who joins the military have to have a pure heart full of patriotism and willingness to serve for serving's sake?

What´s the quote patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel? You know some of the biggest flag wavers I know never spent a day in the military. I would say the vast majority are patriotic, but in the vein of doing not talking. And yes I would say the litmus test would be "Do I have a strong conviction that I must serve?"

Or is ok to enlist for the benifits and experience?

People do, and if you can meet your obligations responsibly why not (I would still ask myself the question above). If you are signing up I sure as heck would advise people to make sure they will have a return on their years invested, assuming you make it through unscathed. I would for sure make sure you get the right job slot, cause beyond that you will serve the needs of the service first.
You do understand the concept of "orders" vice "suggestions"?

 

[splash]

Man, if only I could have started working after completing 5th grade.

Well, just let insurance take over everything. There is pet insurance now! Let's just bet on when our next meal will be or if our children will go to college or not, eh? ...wait, I think.