Crisis in Flight Training

juan valdez said:
So by y our standards if the average "professional pilot" makes 100k/yr then people taking out 200k/yr is ok? :cool:
A doctor gets to take out 1 million smackers? :dunno:
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while i understand the idea he was going for, theres no good way to implement that without setting arbitrary numbers....

and also by doing so, that would limit the whole "you can do anything you try hard enough to do" and reform that into "you can do anything you can afford to do"

right?
 
juan valdez said:
So by y our standards if the average "professional pilot" makes 100k/yr then people taking out 200k/yr is ok? :cool:
A doctor gets to take out 1 million smackers? :dunno:
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First two years of pay, which sucks for a doctor too.

And the average pilot starting now will never make $100k
 
But you see people feel entitled to be able to do anything they want right now! Which is excatly the attitude that ticks me off. Listen, you have to be realstic when making a career choice. And bottom line part of that calculation is whether or not you can afford to get into the field. Flying is not the only job that how much money you have determines if you can pursue it or not. Law school, Med school all cost way more than flying. The problem is too many people feel entitled to the right to do it right now versus paying as they go. I think its a great thing that students can't get the loans anymore. It will now force them to consider the alternate route of getting a bachelor degree that is actually worth something while working to pay for their ratings as they go. Then all the sudden you will have a bunch of regional pilots who can actually afford to live on regional pay because they dont have 100k in debt! And you can't blame the banks for this saying its predatory lending because when you take out a loan you should have researched your realstic potentional pay and weight that against the amount of the loan. Just because alot of people drank the kool-aid thinking they would make 100k as a pilot doesnt mean they shouldn't be held responsible for making a poor decision.
 
Jbroz04 said:
But you see people feel entitled to be able to do anything they want right now! Which is excatly the attitude that ticks me off. Listen, you have to be realstic when making a career choice. And bottom line part of that calculation is whether or not you can afford to get into the field. Flying is not the only job that how much money you have determines if you can pursue it or not. Law school, Med school all cost way more than flying. The problem is too many people feel entitled to the right to do it right now versus paying as they go. I think its a great thing that students can't get the loans anymore. It will now force them to consider the alternate route of getting a bachelor degree that is actually worth something while working to pay for their ratings as they go. Then all the sudden you will have a bunch of regional pilots who can actually afford to live on regional pay because they dont have 100k in debt! And you can't blame the banks for this saying its predatory lending because when you take out a loan you should have researched your realstic potentional pay and weight that against the amount of the loan. Just because alot of people drank the kool-aid thinking they would make 100k as a pilot doesnt mean they shouldn't be held responsible for making a poor decision.
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:yeahthat:

Except to add that banks should be responsible for predatory lending when they loan money to a student to attend an institution with a business model doomed to failure. Anyone could see that Silver State was a ponzi scheme - I saw it well before the shutdown. Same with Tab Express. The banks should hold some responsibility for not researching these institutions.
 
Murdoughnut said:
The banks should hold some responsibility for not researching these institutions.
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If, when their loans were defaulted upon, the Bankstas actually lost money, one imagines they might stop most ricky-tick. The problem is that we live in a kleptocracy. The machinery of the ultra-rich swindlers is in control of our political process (research carefully and see how many former Goldman-Sachs employees are in positions of great governmental power...then tell me the last time Goldman-Sachs didn't get what it wanted).

If the loans are defaulted upon, blammo, the government will just print and hand money to the Bankstas. I remain absolutely dumfounded at the total lack of outrage amongst the bovine electorate. The Republic is being eviscerated, we're being led like cattle to the slaughter in to a future of yobbish, ignorant serfdom, and everyone is happily chewing their cud and plotting their next consumer electronics purchase (Or their glamorous future as a $18/hour Airline Pilot)
 
SteveC is SO much better than I at tackling these loan myths, but let me start with this basic premise.

Student/training loans are unnecessary. TxAviator et al - I bet if you focus your energy I'll bet you can make my argument for me and list ten realistic ways to pay for school without incurring debt.

juan valdez said:
:rotfl:
I have tons of friends not in aviation that are still repaying loans. For the average kid these days, that's how it is. Unless you live in Fl, where the cost of college tuition is lower than it costs to send a kid to daycare.
I graduated high school 8 years ago and I think 95% of my class went to college. I would wager the money I will make from now til the end of the year that if I were able to poll them, over half would have student loans and of that 50%, 90+% did not repay them in 2 years. I mean even if you only took out 10 grand, in 2 years that's over 400/mo not even counting interest rates.
I'm basing 10 grand off of UT being I believe 13k/yr, and I don't know very many people who's parents had 50k+ laying around.


:yeahthat:
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That's most likely becasue the parents had no interest or education in basic financial planning. If the parent simply stuffed money in a mattress every month from when the child was born, $231 a month would net $50,000 by the time the kid was 18. Do a 529 or something like it invested for 18 years and the monthly amount is much less. If parents did this and also educated their children on sound financial management principles this generational chain of student loans would cease.

TXaviator said:
so only rich people should be allowed to do what they want to do with their life? sweet!
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Murdoughnut said:
Rich? How about those that make a modest living in a career outside of aviation and take a few years to pay for their ratings?
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Exactly. TX, you really have to lose this "woe is me hard work = money is a myth" mentality. There are simply too many ways to pay for education to support your attitude. Unfortunately, they usually do require hard work and dedication. It also may involve delaying gratification. It isn't easy. But it is better than being a slave to Sally Mae.
 
Ian J said:
That's most likely becasue the parents had no interest or education in basic financial planning. If the parent simply stuffed money in a mattress every month from when the child was born, $231 a month would net $50,000 by the time the kid was 18. Do a 529 or something like it invested for 18 years and the monthly amount is much less. If parents did this and also educated their children on sound financial management principles this generational chain of student loans would cease.


.
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Regardless of the reason, that doesn't change my point. 230/mo may not be a lot to you but to my sister who has 3 kids it would be a lot. Plus that would be not 230/mo but 690/mo for her. I KNOW for a fact she can't afford that. Again though, the reason doesn't detract from the point I was making
 
But it does. Just because you want to do something doesnt mean you should get a loan for it. Bottom line as I said before it is pay to pay. If you dont have the money then you will have to delay your entrance into the professional until you do. Many people have worked and got their ratings without going into debt and theres no reason you couldnt have done the same. And theres no reason to say future pilots cant either. If they want in they can find a way to make it work without going into ridicolous debt. A 18 year old just got his CFI and paid for it all working at mcdonalds and has zero debt as a CFI at 18. He has desire and a good work ethic and that is all it takes.
 
Jbroz04 said:
If they want in they can find a way to make it work without going into ridicolous debt.
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Perhaps the reason flight training has become so expensive is because it was being paid in Monopoly money from Key bank, vs hard earned dollars from McDs and Domminos.

I'll be the first to admit I financed most of my flight training. But I now consider doing so a big mistake.
 
juan valdez said:
Regardless of the reason, that doesn't change my point. 230/mo may not be a lot to you but to my sister who has 3 kids it would be a lot. Plus that would be not 230/mo but 690/mo for her. I KNOW for a fact she can't afford that. Again though, the reason doesn't detract from the point I was making
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Alright - what was the point you were making? All I saw in your post were examples of a bunch of people you knew who were irresponsible with their money.

Mine is very simple - people don't need to and should not get student loans.
 
Murdoughnut said:
From what I'm hearing, though - your airport seems to be the exception. Most of my CFI friends say their businesses are dead, save for a few foreign students. .
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Hi Guys,

Just another data point...the place I went to go do a checkout in a 172...yea, that's right, everyone's beloved four-banger...was a hassle.

They had such an inane list of rules/dos/don'ts I don't know where to start (can't go across state lines ?!?). The management was toolish, the prices high, the CFIs rude, and scheduling anything other than a dual flight seemed to be fraught with difficulty (which is, um, the point of getting checked out in a rental bird).

Word:

1) I don't need a 5 hour checkout in a 172.
2) I don't need ANOTHER 5 hour checkout in a 152/PA28/whatever AFTER the 172
3) I don't need to do a 2 hour "refresher" period with a CFI every 90 days irregardless of the amount I've flown.

If you don't want to rent aircraft, fine, then don't. But don't advertise that you do, and make it insanely difficult to do so AFTER you've got my $$ for a checkout.

I swear, some places bring it on themselves. Not just this one place, but I've seen a lot of places lately (cough-Apple Store-cough) where you practically have to WAVE a fist full of dollars and beg them to take your money.

Weird....

Richman
 
That is crazy. Here one flight you can rent anything besides the twin and 182RG. The twin and 182RG require a certain amount of hours in type.
 
Jbroz04 said:
But it does. Just because you want to do something doesnt mean you should get a loan for it. Bottom line as I said before it is pay to pay. If you dont have the money then you will have to delay your entrance into the professional until you do. Many people have worked and got their ratings without going into debt and theres no reason you couldnt have done the same. And theres no reason to say future pilots cant either. If they want in they can find a way to make it work without going into ridicolous debt. A 18 year old just got his CFI and paid for it all working at mcdonalds and has zero debt as a CFI at 18. He has desire and a good work ethic and that is all it takes.
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I was not talking about only flight training, I am talking about any profession. I also never said I am in any debt for flight training, learn to read.
Ian J said:
Alright - what was the point you were making? All I saw in your post were examples of a bunch of people you knew who were irresponsible with their money.

Mine is very simple - people don't need to and should not get student loans.
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How is providing for your kid up until they are a legal adult irressponsible? I'm glad you live in a perfect world. :whatever:
 
Ian J said:
Alright - what was the point you were making? All I saw in your post were examples of a bunch of people you knew who were irresponsible with their money.

Mine is very simple - people don't need to and should not get student loans.
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A lot of stuff you post here is awsome Ian. But I didn't have the opportunity to have any money for ANYTHING from my parents for my future. I come from blu collar 'murica. My mother and father did everything they could to keep a roof over mine and my brothers heads growing up. They are just now in a position now that my brother and I are no longer a burdon to put more money away for them selfs. I had no other choice but to finance my education. Especially after haveing a kid. And if I have the money left over at then end of the month (being that I am pay check to pay check right now) I will put money away for my son. Thats the reason why the current plan is to have one kid.

Like someone else said, get out of your perfect world, and come back to our reality of haze.
 
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