Coudn't complete IOE

[Maximilian_Jenius]

How many opportunities for IFR flying do you have? I was teaching Europeans who only learn basic IFR stuff so I never had a chance to do IFR xc's. I was also in PHX. IFR flights can help mostly to be comfortable in the ATC world. Like everyone is saying on here lots of the approaches you do are visual, so it's not really the action of doing approaches in a 172 that is good practice, but the ATC instructions and procedures are similar. Things I would have done differently are: gone on more jumpseat flights, chairfly + flight sim, even listening to live ATC at airports you know you're gonna fly to. Not knowing what to expect from ATC made everything a suprise. Like I mentioned another challenge was handling different ways ATC would take us from the STAR to getting fully configured at the FAF. This thread would have helped me see how there are different ways to get it to slowdown and descend, and I was hesitant to break from the standardized profiles we learned in the schoolhouse. For example we were taught to put gear down after Flaps 3 and when you're level about 3miles before the FAF. BUT we don't practice real world scenarios in the sim like slam dunk approaches. In those cases, the configurations might need to change a bit.

Also, and this was probably my biggest problem, is take advantage of the down time before IOE. I did very little studying during the 3 week wait between the sim and flying. I'm really kicking myself for that because I know how close I was, and I know I could have finished it. Now I have to start over again. In fact, I'm going to start applying to Endeavor right now!

KGYR?

 

[ClarkGriswold]

Honestly half the time with visuals it's way easier to just dump all the automation and hand fly it

Thats how I normally did it in the 170. Easier. @Adler

 

[Lunchbox]

It is, I agree...but a substantial part of our skills as a pilot is being competent with all of the different levels of aviation (to include hand flying, obviously). Unless you make it a point to use the Autoflight/Flight Guidance panel to try and figure out which vertical mode to use, when to use it, and how much of it, you'll never get much better at it.

I believe that's why he said "half the time.." I did the same with the visual approaches, mixed it up to stay fresh in all areas except the river and expressway visuals since those were too much fun to leave automation on. The 170 is still my favorite plane to fly so far...

 

[🦈💜]

Embraer 170 pilots play with the vertical speed mode in Airbii at all the inopportune times.

"Well in the 170…"

"Dude, I will murder you if you do that in ALT* again"

Personally, I almost never use VS. I'm definitely a FLCHer kind of fox. FPA has its uses, but I have other ways to deal with most of them. I notice some people get fancy with FPA on visual approaches, but I'm mostly inclined just to disengage the autopilot. FPA is a usually just a stop-gap for dialing in the laser if left high. Otherwise, it's boards, gear, flaps, < des now, and FLCH... not necessarily in that order.

There are a billion ways to slice an E-175.

-Fox

 

[ctab5060X]

There are a billion ways to slice an E-175.

That is the one major thing I try to impress on FOs that are new to the type. There is more than one way of making the jet do what you want it to do.

I really don't care what vertical mode you personally use, just as long as we make crossing restrictions, are stable on approach, etc...

 

[Adler]

We were neck and neck with a UPS 747 out of the same destination. It was like a race for him, wanted to get above them and go faster....for no apparent reason.

Him: "If it was my leg, we'd be doing .87 so we could get out ahead."

Me: "k"

*minutes later*

Him: "because if we get out ahead, we can climb up above them."

Me: "Do we have enough fuel to get there without doing that?"

Him: "Well, yeah."

Me: "k"

Because I'm sure they DGAF about your position.

Paid by the minute.

Back when I was paid by the mile, it was always a race.

One night @TallWeeds and I landed in Laredo as a Kalitta 727 was taking off. They were headed for Bowling Green, Kentucky, the same as us. Bowling Green is a tiny uncontrolled airport not meant for transport category jets, especially not meant for multiple transport category jets.

We cleared customs, got some fuel, and blasted off. Kalitta was in a regular 727, we were in a re-engined Super 27. Despite their 30 minute head start, we climbed higher, and eventually right before top of descent passed them.

In Bowling Green we got the last [only] parking spot, and Kalitta had to park on taxiway. Engines shut down, I put in the tail stand, and watched as Kalitta was marshaled to their parking spot. The marshaller sucked, and Kalitta sank into the dirt pretty deep.

It would have been us if we didn't race.

 

[Adler]

Thats how I normally did it in the 170. Easier. @Adler

CLICK, CLICK, "Autopilot. Autothrottles"

Clark: "Remove my flight director please"

Uhhhhh, are you sure...wait a second, I know you, and you can actually fly. OK!

 

[BobDDuck]

MULTI QUOTES FTW:

Flaps are a lift device, not for drag. But yea, 210kts, 1/2 spoilers, flaps 1 helps you get down.

Totally depends on the airframe. McD frames will have a fair amount of drag associated with the first 10 to 20 degrees of flaps. It also helps that you can put them out at a rather high airspeed.

Embraer 170 pilots play with the vertical speed mode in Airbii at all the inopportune times.

"Well in the 170…"

"Dude, I will murder you if you do that in ALT* again"

Trying to outsmart the automation never seems to work well. Same thing when guys try to use heading to join a localizer course so you don't overshoot.

Sometimes I miss the simplistic CRJ setup. The 717's version of VNAV aka PROF is sweet and all, but can get goofy if not correctly setup.

Biggest issue I normally see is guys not making the fix altitudes big AFTER you engage PROF. For some reason it will reset them some of the time, but not always. Also it has a strange habit of climbing to capture the profile if you are below it when you engage PROF. Otherwise it's awesome.

 

[Box hauler]

Well, I try to tell the newbies that the Airbus is an Airbus is an Airbus.

It's going to be a little high, the speed is going to vary and if you're trying to be smooth and 99% of the time, it "works". Now if you're trying to be "smooth" or make it fly like your last plane, that 99% swiftly goes down to about 40% if even that high.

I try to let guys learn and experiment, within reason, on how to fly the jet and I'll let them run way down the wrong hallway to the point that I almost can't salvage it and then snap the "monkey line" tightly when they're almost to the point of no return.

Primarily, every time you push, twist, press, whatever and lets say you have 99.9% accuracy. The more times you dick with the system trying to get it to perform like an airplane it isn't, that 0.1% error becomes an integer accordingly.

I now have a whopping 4 legs in the Bus and yeah man.... it seems like you have to throw all of your old knowledge out the window. Every time I go to make a change I have to stop and ask myself if I should be pushing or pulling and remind myself exactly what that means in the given situation. Good times

 

[Cazadores]

Words....blah blah

727. Blah blah SUPER 27 some more words blah blah....PICTURE of 727.......

View attachment 37220

Something about the 727, I know a jet is a jet is a jet, but of all the airliners I will likely never get a type, just a little envious.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Flying Saluki]

I have been asked to resign at my first 121 regional. I made it through ground training OK, but the problem was in IOE. At the end of my first trip, my check airmen recommended more time. I was flying the E-175 struggling mostly with the automation, especially descending to the FAF after the STAR. My second attempt of IOE was split between two very different check airmen which was quite a disadvantage. On my last flight, I was still making small mistakes, and I wasn't recommended for a line check. I expected another final chance from management, but ultimately was asked to resign. I guess I am seen as a liability at this point. That's the short version, and now I'm trying to put that behind me.

My question is: how do you recommend discussing this on my next interview? It's not considered a fail, just an incomplete. How can I still have a successful interview without being a "liability" to the next company? I'm sending updated apps to other regionals, hoping that going through training a second time will be smoother.

I am also posting this to advise everyone to pass IOE by the second attempt! I know most people get it by the first, and even more by the second. Lots of us new FO's are coming from CFI backgrounds having only flown Cessnas and Seminoles. Its a steep learning curve, and I wish the training department was more sympathetic to that.

The thing that strikes me about this is that you made it through training. You were online and producing revenue for them. Granted you had to fly with an IP, and so maybe that was causing some scheduling issues. But it's not like you were costing them anything. Why give up on you at this point? Especially considering the problems regionals are having recruiting pilots. You think they'd make every effort to help you pass. It makes no sense to me. What am I missing?

Personally, I think it's Bravo Sierra that you have to take this on your shoulders. Lay blame where blame belongs. You were 98% there, and they chose to give up on you. They should have to own that, not you. Yes, I know that's not how it works. But that's the way it ought to be...

You'll be alright. Learn from the experience, and then put it to work for one of their competitors!

 

[learhawkerbe400]

The thing that strikes me about this is that you made it through training. You were online and producing revenue for them. Granted you had to fly with an IP, and so maybe that was causing some scheduling issues. But it's not like you were costing them anything. Why give up on you at this point? Especially considering the problems regionals are having recruiting pilots. You think they'd make every effort to help you pass. It makes no sense to me. What am I missing?

Personally, I think it's Bravo Sierra that you have to take this on your shoulders. Lay blame where blame belongs. You were 98% there, and they chose to give up on you. They should have to own that, not you. Yes, I know that's not how it works. But that's the way it ought to be...

You'll be alright. Learn from the experience, and then put it to work for one of their competitors!

Nothing against the OP but why blame it on the airline? It's not like decisions like this are taken lightly. There's plenty of people who don't get past IOE.

 

[Flying Saluki]

Nothing against the OP but why blame it on the airline? It's not like decisions like this are taken lightly. There's plenty of people who don't get past IOE.

That's why I asked "what am I missing." It seems to me if you can get through ground school, CPT, simulator, examinations, all that stuff; why wash someone out at that point? If it takes 50 hours of IOE instead of the usual 25, what difference does it make? At that point you're at least generating revenue vs. being an expense. Why cut someone loose at that point? What's the X-factor?

 

[derg]

My question is: how do you recommend discussing this on my next interview? It's not considered a fail, just an incomplete. How can I still have a successful interview without being a "liability" to the next company? I'm sending updated apps to other regionals, hoping that going through training a second time will be smoother.

Be frank and honest about what happened and do not attempt, by any means, to sugarcoat it was "Well, it wasn't a good fit for me so I resigned".

My buddy talked to a guy who had been through three regionals in less than 18 months and kept talking about how each previous carrier wasn't a good fit, or there was something personal going on that he couldn't commit the time to do a good job in training, yadda yadda yadda.

So then the question was posed, "if you didn't resign, you were going to be terminated, is this a fair statement?"

"Yes".

It's better just to say what actually happened. Yeah, you're going to "fall" occasionally in this career who cares, but an evaluator is listening for a story about how YOU owned up to it (even if you feel it wasn't your fault, OWN IT), learned/matured/restructured and got back up.

"Oh, it was a resignation and not a termination" said no evaluator, ever.

Own it. You learned from it and changed and then hopefully succeeded later.

Do not sugar coat it because an evaluator will sense that before you're halfway through your first sentence. Trust me.

 

[ctab5060X]

Be frank and honest about what happened and do not attempt, by any means, to sugarcoat it was "Well, it wasn't a good fit for me so I resigned".

My buddy talked to a guy who had been through three regionals in less than 18 months and kept talking about how each previous carrier wasn't a good fit, or there was something personal going on that he couldn't commit the time to do a good job in training, yadda yadda yadda.

So then the question was posed, "if you didn't resign, you were going to be terminated, is this a fair statement?"

"Yes".

It's better just to say what actually happened. Yeah, you're going to "fall" occasionally in this career who cares, but an evaluator is listening for a story about how YOU owned up to it (even if you feel it wasn't your fault, OWN IT), learned/matured/restructured and got back up.

"Oh, it was a resignation and not a termination" said no evaluator, ever.

Own it. You learned from it and changed and then hopefully succeeded later.

Do not sugar coat it because an evaluator will sense that before you're halfway through your first sentence. Trust me.

Sometimes it's not about the fall, but how you get back up.

 

[derg]

Sometimes it's not about the fall, but how you get back up.

It's all about how you get up.

Even if a DPE completely screws you, said you wore the wrong color shirt and it was wholly unfair, if you walk into an interview without a "I failed, and this is how I rose from the ashes and became a stronger pilot" you're not going to have an agreeable conclusion to your experience.

 

[Dphoenix]

It's all about how you get up.

Even if a DPE completely screws you, said you wore the wrong color shirt and it was wholly unfair, if you walk into an interview without a "I failed, and this is how I rose from the ashes and became a stronger pilot" you're not going to have an agreeable conclusion to your experience.

That's actually one of the funniest stories I know... I know of exactly one time where blaming the DPE actually worked. Unknown to the applicant at the time, it turned out that the pilot recruiter too knew the DPE in question... and said DPE reputation, which was not a positive one, and started explaining to the totally shellshocked other people in the interview. I think that was an absolute moonshot, however, and may never again work in the history of aviation.

 

[obx]

Fall down seven times, stand up eight. - Japanese proverb.

 

[bike21]

That's actually one of the funniest stories I know... I know of exactly one time where blaming the DPE actually worked. Unknown to the applicant at the time, it turned out that the pilot recruiter too knew the DPE in question... and said DPE reputation, which was not a positive one, and started explaining to the totally shellshocked other people in the interview. I think that was an absolute moonshot, however, and may never again work in the history of aviation.

Was that DPE from Denver area? We had one years back that was a real POS. I was chief at the school at the time and he'd come in praising how awesome we were and would trash all the other schools. I'm quite certain he'd do the same at all the others. Had some major issues with him, poor students. I eventually made the call to stop using him.

 

[Vyse]

That's why I asked "what am I missing." It seems to me if you can get through ground school, CPT, simulator, examinations, all that stuff; why wash someone out at that point? If it takes 50 hours of IOE instead of the usual 25, what difference does it make? At that point you're at least generating revenue vs. being an expense. Why cut someone loose at that point? What's the X-factor?

Am surprised that the OP did not get at least a TRB hearing- unless he implied that when he mentioned "second attempt". Still that's kind of a quick hook esp. in this day and age where I've heard people get as many as 100 hours IOE.