Continental pilot dies in flight

Well I must say the last five pages have been interesting. So RIP captain and Velo. Don I believe I owe you a drink soon.
 
"Now, as for the "scab" argument... I do want to say this: How can some of you come on here and make vile comments about scabs, calling them the "low of the low" and making their life hell, then suddenly change tune when someone who fits that description passes away?"

I have no desire to wish ill will on the pilot who just died. However, the fact that his name is on the scab list is simply a fact. Seems like quite a few here are upset that DE was the one who made the fact public at JC. I'm still trying to figure that one out....

Craig Lenell made a call 26 years ago for whatever reason. The call was the wrong one. It was a bad call. There are few things professional pilots can do to improve their lot. One big one is to be unionized. I can only speak for myself, but I'd guess I make twice what a USairways guy doing my job makes and maybe four times what a Omni Air guy makes doing my job. Why do I make four times what an Omni Air 757 Capt makes? It's cause of my union, and maybe a little bit because my company is profitable. So, you can call me a rather pro-union sort of fella. When the crapola hits the rotating fan, it's really important for union members to stick together. Being a scab is about the worst possible thing one could do to his union brothers.

Recently, UPS decided they needed to lay off 10% of the IPA pilots. Our union got together with the membership and asked for guys to job share and take leaves to prevent a furlough. We were able to avoid a furlough at UPS because a majority of the union pilots stuck together and agreed to voluntary personal sacrifices that resulted in no furloughs at UPS, at least until April. I myself am taking the next two months off without pay. Let me tell you people, this is the sort of thing that needs to happen in the biz to turn things around and improve the career. Sticking together is everything. Crossing a picket line is the worst of the worst.

Again, I have no ill will against Craig Lenell. At this point, I think I'd welcome a scab onto my jumpseat just to hear their story. I'm sorry so many JC'ers are upset with this thread. That was never my intention.
 
Your "brothers" in another forum are saying stuff like he deserved to die for crossing a picket line. I think they really mean it too.
 
Killtron2000 said:
Your "brothers" in another forum are saying stuff like he deserved to die for crossing a picket line. I think they really mean it too.
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You'll always find those kinds in any group.

Same sort of things were being said about the female Capt of Valujet 592 after it went down into the swamp in FL. Candy Kubeck had been an Eastern replacement scab. The things being said about her were pretty sickening, regardless of the fact. People even called her family after the crash to tell them she got what she deserved.

So nothing new here......old news. There will be idiot a-holes everywhere you go.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
The phrase usually used is "forgiven but not forgotten." Lots of guys can't let it go, despite the fact that many of the CAL scabs have seen the error of their ways and have become truly great union members. One of the best ALPA volunteers I've met is a CAL 737 Captain in EWR that crossed the line in '83 as a newhire. He was young at the time and didn't really realize the magnitude of what he was doing. Now he's a die-hard union supporter and has helped us with organizing drives, including the CJC drive.
.
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Here's what I was told about it, adding to the basics I already knew (which was just the periphery of it):

"Sadly our own pilot union, ALPA put the almighty dollar ahead of the concept of honoring picket lines when they allowed SCABS from Continental Air Lines back into the union. Interestingly enough the Continental pilots got to vote on rejoining ALPA. The ALPA rank and file didn't get to vote on the matter."

- Capt Jon Mickley, DAL retired. aka: ROFCIBC, from JC.

Used to yap with him about all sorts of stuff, airlines, unions, etc. NASCAR was his big interest. Good guy. Primarily, his AF and Vietnam background were of interest to me.

But back to this......this very subject was discussed here 4 years ago, with yours truly participating in the discussion. Interesting some of the viewpoints back then.

http://forums.jetcareers.com/general-topics/14981-valujet-592-capt-candy-kubeck.html
 
DE727UPS said:
"Now, as for the "scab" argument... I do want to say this: How can some of you come on here and make vile comments about scabs, calling them the "low of the low" and making their life hell, then suddenly change tune when someone who fits that description passes away?"
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if you asked me, i'd think it's just basic compassion considering the circumstances...

plus, him being a scab really has nothing at all to do with the story at large....kinda like calling anyone whose recently passed away from unusual circumstances a royal pita....the fact that he may have been a royal pita has nothing to do with the topic at hand and isn't respectful when speaking of the dead IMO...
 
MikeD said:
You'll always find those kinds in any group.

Same sort of things were being said about the female Capt of Valujet 592 after it went down into the swamp in FL. Candy Kubeck had been an Eastern replacement scab. The things being said about her were pretty sickening, regardless of the fact. People even called her family after the crash to tell them she got what she deserved.

So nothing new here......old news. There will be idiot a-holes everywhere you go.
Click to expand...

Wow, now THAT's pretty harsh. Unreal......
 
DE727UPS said:
"Now, as for the "scab" argument... I do want to say this: How can some of you come on here and make vile comments about scabs, calling them the "low of the low" and making their life hell, then suddenly change tune when someone who fits that description passes away?"

I have no desire to wish ill will on the pilot who just died. However, the fact that his name is on the scab list is simply a fact. Seems like quite a few here are upset that DE was the one who made the fact public at JC. I'm still trying to figure that one out....

Craig Lenell made a call 26 years ago for whatever reason. The call was the wrong one. It was a bad call. There are few things professional pilots can do to improve their lot. One big one is to be unionized. I can only speak for myself, but I'd guess I make twice what a USairways guy doing my job makes and maybe four times what a Omni Air guy makes doing my job. Why do I make four times what an Omni Air 757 Capt makes? It's cause of my union, and maybe a little bit because my company is profitable. So, you can call me a rather pro-union sort of fella. When the crapola hits the rotating fan, it's really important for union members to stick together. Being a scab is about the worst possible thing one could do to his union brothers.

Recently, UPS decided they needed to lay off 10% of the IPA pilots. Our union got together with the membership and asked for guys to job share and take leaves to prevent a furlough. We were able to avoid a furlough at UPS because a majority of the union pilots stuck together and agreed to voluntary personal sacrifices that resulted in no furloughs at UPS, at least until April. I myself am taking the next two months off without pay. Let me tell you people, this is the sort of thing that needs to happen in the biz to turn things around and improve the career. Sticking together is everything. Crossing a picket line is the worst of the worst.

Again, I have no ill will against Craig Lenell. At this point, I think I'd welcome a scab onto my jumpseat just to hear their story. I'm sorry so many JC'ers are upset with this thread. That was never my intention.
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Very good post. Not often I can say that about Donny. ;)

MikeD said:
Here's what I was told about it, adding to the basics I already knew (which was just the periphery of it):

"Sadly our own pilot union, ALPA put the almighty dollar ahead of the concept of honoring picket lines when they allowed SCABS from Continental Air Lines back into the union. Interestingly enough the Continental pilots got to vote on rejoining ALPA. The ALPA rank and file didn't get to vote on the matter."

- Capt Jon Mickley, DAL retired. aka: ROFCIBC, from JC.
Click to expand...

Captain Mickley needs to talk to the guys on the Board of Directors that had to make this decision. It was not about money. ALPA was awash in money at the time. This was about bringing everyone under the umbrella of one union for the benefit of the profession, plus bringing the loyal strikers back so they didn't have to suffer just because there were a bunch of scabs in their pilot group.

As for voting, the Board of Directors got to vote, and they represent the pilots.
 
Honestly, given the fact that I fly in the north east, where airports are scattered everywhere, I would get the pilot out of the cockpit, and then get the plane on the ground asap. Every minute I spend teaching somebody who has never been in my airplane where levers are etc, is a minute that my crewmember goes without proper medical attention. Over the Atlantic where I have 3 hours before the closest airport, then sure.
 
MikeD said:
But back to this......this very subject was discussed here 4 years ago, with yours truly participating in the discussion. Interesting some of the viewpoints back then.

http://forums.jetcareers.com/general-topics/14981-valujet-592-capt-candy-kubeck.html
Click to expand...

Good thread there. Lots of good points made in a civilized manner. I miss the Retired Old Fart and flyover. Those are the kind of experienced guys we need even more of here - ones with varied opinions, good insights, and a level-headed attitude.

[off-off-topic]
Ironic (and prescient) post by MikeD:

MikeD said:
I had heard about thoughts on Kubeck shortly after VJ 592 happened. I thought it to be pretty low then and pretty low now. No reason to stomp on her grave.

It'd be no different than condemning a Gulfstream grad that dies in an accident.
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TUCKnTRUCK said:
Honestly, given the fact that I fly in the north east, where airports are scattered everywhere, I would get the pilot out of the cockpit, and then get the plane on the ground asap. Every minute I spend teaching somebody who has never been in my airplane where levers are etc, is a minute that my crewmember goes without proper medical attention. Over the Atlantic where I have 3 hours before the closest airport, then sure.
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Not that I was on the crew or anything, but I think the only reason that they chose to continue to EWR was that there were two FOs on the airplane that were capable of acting as a crew to continue to the destination safely. Plus the fact that there was a cardiac doctor that said that nothing could be done. Had he had a stroke for a more mild heart attack, or it was a regular 2-man crew, I'm sure they would have diverted to Gander or some place like that along the route. The CAL 757 CA that passed away a year or two ago was a regular 2-man crew and they diverted mid flight.
 
Polar742 said:
Well, I know one free beer is coming my way. :beer:

I think Cruise might rightfully be insulted by that faux pas. :crazy:



I agree with you Dale (Beer me baby.....;) ), that's what it boils down to.

I definitely wouldn't look crossways at anyone who would solve the issue to a successful conclusion. There are many, many factors that would be taken into account.
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It's an honor to be mistaken for the great Polar742! Regardless, I'd be happy to drink with both of you!!! Someone else wanna join in the fun???
 
OldTownPilot said:
Not that I was on the crew or anything, but I think the only reason that they chose to continue to EWR was that there were two FOs on the airplane that were capable of acting as a crew to continue to the destination safely. Plus the fact that there was a cardiac doctor that said that nothing could be done. Had he had a stroke for a more mild heart attack, or it was a regular 2-man crew, I'm sure they would have diverted to Gander or some place like that along the route. The CAL 757 CA that passed away a year or two ago was a regular 2-man crew and they diverted mid flight.
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I was putting it into general terms, along the lines of, if I'm flying ewr-bdl I wouldn't ask for a non q pilot to come help. I would not have time to brief them while trying to get on the ground asap. It's not like there isn't an airport within 5 minutes
 
I guess flight duration would play a big factor in all the decision making. You screw around too much and you'll eat into your reserve fuel pretty darn quickly.
 
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